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I like Contador even less now [Definate Spoiler]
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Should AC have attacked.
Yes
28%
 28%  [ 7 ]
No
72%
 72%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 25

Author Thread Post new topic Reply to topic
Garth
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 330
Location: Miraflores de la Sierra (Madrid), Spain.

7/19/10 1:33 PM

Doubt it was frame flex as Eric describes.....

AS looked to be in the little ring just before it dropped (8 secs into the U-Tube clip), with the RD being quite slack, so he was also in a small cog on the rear.

Also when he was putting the chain back on, it was clear that the RD was aligned with the smallest cog, the chain looks to be on the the 2nd or third smallest cog. Looks like he tried to up-shift under full load, a no-no when there is very little tension on the lower side of the chain (derailleur spring fully relaxed).

He totally fluffed putting the chain back on, had to stop a second time and try again, cost him an extra 8 seconds or so.

Let's wait for the fireworks to explode tomorrow and Thursday

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 733
Location: Long Island, NY

7/19/10 4:19 PM

"Shit happens, what can I say. He went full gas when he saw that I had a mechanical,"

Except that's not what happened. AS was attacking and it took AC a bit to respond, so he was already in full acceleration when he passed AS, who at that point was slowing. Certainly AC knew something had happened, but probably not the cause and certainly had no idea as to the severity or the amount of time it would take AS to get going again. Too Bad for AS.

I'm no fan of AC but it's a tough call to say that AC should have waited. If the situation were reversed and it had been AC that had chain trouble, you can bet that AS would NOT have waited, but would have put time where he could.

Remember too that both riders had to think about Menchov and Sanchez, who while 2 minutes back overall, could certainly have used the climb and mechanical to re-gain some of that time, and it's really easy to lose 2 minutes on a climb to guys that can climb like those 2.

Plus it wasn't something like a crash, which is somewhat out of the riders control, as what happened to LA a few years back as he was chasing Basso and Ulriich. A mechanical is just bad luck at a bad time and that's what happened to LA this year on the cobbles, when he was still in the hunt. NOBODY waited for his flat tire.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8320
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/19/10 4:22 PM

he fluffed that chain install because he did not want to get his hands dirty.

Not really but when not under pressure we all feel that way.

I don't know about that Garth, MTBs shift under load all the time, in small small combos etc. I have done it, no problems with my Ultegra stuff, or even 105 so why problems with top shelf stuff. I will stand by frame flex, moving the cable tension.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2615
Location: hillbilly heaven

7/19/10 5:15 PM

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say his chain was too long. The rear derailleur was very slack, and I suspect he shifted to a smaller rear cog, slackening the rear der more. It locked up and his weight shifted forward. It went slack and then fell off the chainring. My armchair analyst opinion.

Go Shleck.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8320
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/19/10 5:19 PM

could be, was he on a compact? If so, maybe they just changed the crank.

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brian burgess
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2144
Location: south east PA

7/19/10 5:57 PM

watch again

AS attacked and gapped AC. Vino (Vino!) was the first to pass and he visibly slowed. AC passed seconds later w/ AS obviously coming to a stop. He attacked and continued to attack and drive, constantly looking over his shoulder. I's HIS job, HIS role as last year's winner and rider in the driver seat to have the fucking class to slow up, urge the others to do so and wait.

For an example of how to do it, google footage of Armstrong's crash when he hooked a bag. Ullrich showed class and slowed, much like LA did for him when Ullrich went in a ditch.

AC is a classless dick.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8320
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/19/10 6:04 PM

we participate in an odd sport, where else would unwritten rules play out like this?

Other sports believe kicking a man while he is down is okay.

I may hate the drug cloud over our sport but I LOVE the sportsmanship on the road.

Bert pulled a bad one for his image that was already shaky to begin with. The pistol, the cocky act, the ego while on the bike, the lack of teamwork to sweep the podium last year all add up to a crap image. He won't sell electric cars acting like this.

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e-RICHIE
Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 98
Location: chester, ct

7/19/10 6:20 PM


quote:

For an example of how to do it, google footage of Armstrong's crash when he hooked a bag. Ullrich showed class and slowed,


i don't understand this POV.
ullrich (and others) slowed because the real racing in that stage had hardly begun. then, after waiting , what happens - lance not only rides back up to the group, but goes right through them to show his appreciation.

and...

quote:
... much like LA did for him when Ullrich went in a ditch.

the only reason lance waited was because the two were on a break to the line and he desperately needed his two-up companion to seal the deal. they were away and not racing against each, but with each other atmo.

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Tim123
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 252
Location: Adelaide

7/19/10 6:34 PM

waiting

I must admit, while a classy move for sure, I'm not convinced waitng is the thing to do. It is a race after all, cant think of another sport where everyone else waits for the front runner to catch back up. No one stops running if the leader trips in a marathon, no one stops driving if the leader goes to the pits in a motor race.

If it's early in the stage, sure, let up the pace to get everyone back together, but when the heat is on, all bets are off IMO. I didnt see anyone waiting for Chavanel on the cobbles when he stopped three times or so while in yellow. So what's the difference, does the "waiting" rule only aply to "heads of state"?

Thought this was funny though, from Cyclingnews......

Top Ten Gift Ideas For Andy Schleck's 26th Birthday*

*by Alberto Contador

1. A signed yellow jersey
2. A new groupset
3. A dream holiday to somewhere other than Curaçao
4. An apology
5. DVD highlights of stage 15 of the 2003 Tour de France, Bagnères de Bigorre - Luz-Ardiden
6. DVD highlights of stage 2 of the 2010 Tour de France, Brussels-Spa
7. The Lion King soundtrack, particularly track two - "I Just Can't Wait To Be King"
8. A bicycle repair manual
9. A new Spanish pen-pal
10. A dog-eared copy of "How To Lose Friends And Alienate People" by Toby Young


edit: Contador offers opinion/ apology of sorts http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/contador-apologizes-on-youtube/

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bikerjohnpostal
Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 700
Location: Grass Lake, Mi

7/19/10 8:33 PM

Musette Bag

The only reason Ullrich waited was because Hamilton, when with CSC, told the group to wait.

I agree that the only reason Lance waited for Ullrich, when Ullrich did the somersault was to work together to time into others.

As far as the mechanical, I think AS pulled the classic mistake of shifting the front and rear derailleur at the same time. Up to the big ring and down to a smaller on the rear.

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Marc N.
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 451
Location: Israel

7/19/10 9:18 PM

Nice doesn`t cut it

More than anything, I think it points to a certain lack of confidence on the part of AC. He isn`t showing the form of last year, definitely has his concerns, and wasn`t going to pass up an opportunity like this. Add that to the fact that it occured while AS was in attack mode and under those conditions I believe anyone else would have done the same thing. Maybe not the class thing to do, but the right thing.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2449
Location: Canberra, Australia

7/19/10 10:06 PM

A 5g plastic dog fang would have stopped the chain falling off. Don't know why they don't all fit them as a matter of course. Though I suppose on the modern CF frames with their wierd and wonderful frame tube shapes, the standard dog fangs probably won't fit. But that shouldn't be an issue for a Protour team with a multi-million Euro annual budget. It doesn't matter how well adjusted the bike is, you can hit a bump at the same time as changing on the front, and without a dog fang the chain can come off.

I can't ever recall dropping a chain on any of the bike where I've had a dog fang fitted, whereas it has happened from time to time on bikes where they haven't been fitted.

Remember David Millar losing the TDF prologue a few years ago because he was using a single front chaining with no front derailleur and the chain jumped off the chainring.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4528
Location: Nashua, NH

7/19/10 10:50 PM

Contadors is a classless turd

I never liked the guy and he just validated every negative thought I've had about him. He saw that Schleck had a mechanical problem and he immediately put the hammer down and kept it down. He's nothing but a lowlife piece of crap and he is a dishonor to the yellow jersey, the race and the sport. I sincerely hope that Schleck destroys him on the Tourmalet, as that's what he deserves.

It's a real shame that Contador's disgraceful behavior overshadowed Voeckler's impressive victory.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8320
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/20/10 2:42 AM

Now he has apologized.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-makes-youtube-apology-to-schleck




This was TV's greatest win. Well done. TV has an odd face up form.

AS was shifting, check out the video and watch his right pointer finger.

http://video.competitor.com/2010/07/cycling/velocenter-tdf-stage-15-extra/

One of the guys I rode with this weekend was on Red, I was not impressed. Perhaps it was poor wrenching but the crap is NOISY. It clatters on that CNC cassette something terrible and shifts were not as sharp as my Ultegra, at half the price or less.

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brian burgess
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2144
Location: south east PA

7/20/10 7:16 AM

"what other sport"

That whole line of reasoning is specious. Why would you use other sports to evaluate what's considered fair play in cycling?

"The only reason Ullrich waited was because Hamilton, when with CSC, told the group to wait"

The only reason? What, did Hamilton have the Vulcan mind meld on Ullrich? Hamilton may have suggested it, but Ullrich did it.

And this is straight from the Ayn Rand school of cycling commentary:

"the only reason lance waited was because the two were on a break to the line"

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4379
Location: metro-motown-area

7/20/10 7:24 AM

chain drop looked like it went to the *outside*

at least, thats where scheck was monkeying with the chain. maybe it fell to the inside (where a chain-catcher would help), he muffed up refitting it and it fell to the outside. he certainly spent alot of time messing about!

after noodling on it for a day, it's a pretty thin call either way. the big thing that makes the way AC rode so distasteful is that it was AC doing the riding! AC seems to just not garner alot of public support outside of the spanish-speaking world.

regarding garth's "prima-donna attitude" sentiment, fellow luxembourger kim kirchen is more of a hardman, and shares that view of the schleck brothers.

reviewing the video, he was using only the right brifter when it all went poo-poo, then he starts monkeying with the left brifter to get it sorted (unsuccessfully). never having ridden sram red, i have to think he just muffed the shift to the big ring.


Last edited by walter on 7/20/10 7:45 AM; edited 2 times in total

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e-RICHIE
Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 98
Location: chester, ct

7/20/10 7:29 AM


quote:
And this is straight from the Ayn Rand school of cycling commentary:

"the only reason lance waited was because the two were on a break to the line"



that was my quote, however shortened for you to make a point.
you think lance could have finished off that break alone?
it's a serious question.

signed,
atmo shrugged

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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson

7/20/10 7:46 AM

re: fell to the outside

It should be just about impossible for the chain to fall to the outside if the front derailleur is properly adjusted - even if there is overshift built in to the mechanism - does anyone know what the Red FD does?

Personally, I think some mechanic screwed up. Even if Schleck klutzed up the shift it shouldn't happen.

Sandiway

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brian burgess
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2144
Location: south east PA

7/20/10 7:48 AM

etiquette and self-interest

The fact that LA was partly motivated by self-interest does not devalue his following of etiquette. If you care for your children, providing them love, a home, food etc. is that devalued since your primary motivation is the self-interested evolutionary impulse for gene survival?

I'm no Lance fan but he knew how to handle the mantle of leadership from the negative (enforcing the doping Omerta) to the positive (following and enforcing etiquette). AC does not.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4379
Location: metro-motown-area

7/20/10 7:55 AM

lance vs. AC and leadership

lance is a Man, AC is a Boy.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4379
Location: metro-motown-area

7/20/10 8:06 AM

Zinn's pseudo-analysis of AS' chain drop

SRAM red riders, get out your dremels -- a flaw has been found!

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/07/news/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-why-did-schlecks-chain-come-off_130090


Last edited by walter on 7/20/10 8:09 AM; edited 1 time in total

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e-RICHIE
Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 98
Location: chester, ct

7/20/10 8:07 AM


quote:
<snip> I'm no Lance fan but he knew how to handle the mantle of leadership <cut>


i dunno why all of this is hung at any one person's feet when all 19 riders in the group rode right past andy when all of this happened atmo. if all of them were as fit as menchov, contador, and sanchez, they, too, may have stayed away to the finish. i'm not sure where the etiquette card should be played as there are several very selective examples of racing when it suits some and waiting when it suits some already in this tdf. the fabian neutralizing day. the lance at the roundabout day. the crashing on cobbles day. the contador front wheel thing day. folks race when it works for them, and slow down when it also works for them.

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brian burgess
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2144
Location: south east PA

7/20/10 8:23 AM

it's really not that hard to understand

Read the reactions of the vast majority of racers, the commentators and the fans. It seems there is a broad consensus that he violated an unwritten rule. You appear to not agree with that unwritten rule so you're pretending it doesn't exist.

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e-RICHIE
Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 98
Location: chester, ct

7/20/10 8:27 AM


quote:
<snip> It seems there is a broad consensus that he violated an unwritten rule. <cut>



there were 20 riders in the group atmo.
don't you mean "...they violated an unwritten rule."?

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brian burgess
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2144
Location: south east PA

7/20/10 8:30 AM

last post

This is my last post, feel free to get the last word in.

No, I meant "he". There's only 2 real GC contenders at this point, AS and AC. As the prior year's winner and likely winner this year (hanging on the climbs, superior TT'er) it fell to AC to do the right thing. That's the mantle of leadership, it carries the weight of responsibility.

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