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Is Toyota FUBAR?
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Mark McM
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 1254
Location: Boston, MA

2/2/10 7:22 PM

Green house gas reductions from electric cars

So, let me see if I've got this right:

After leaving the Volt on the charger all night it can go just 40 miles on the electric charge,

Costs twice as much to buy as a similar gasoline vehicle,

But only cuts CO2 emission by less than 50%

Electricity 'sounds' like clean energy - until you realize that about 65% of electricity production in the US is from fossil fuels (including about 50% by coal, which produces more CO2 per Watt than gasoline). The German branch of Green Peace produced a study which showed that if Germany went to electric cars, there would only be a small reduction in CO2 emissions, owing to the fact that the vast majority of electric production in Germany is from coal.

I think the equation still isn't quite right for the electric car to be financially viable in any meaningful numbers.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

2/2/10 8:17 PM

50% by coal my ass.

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Mark McM
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 1254
Location: Boston, MA

2/3/10 5:51 AM

Coal for power production


quote:
50% by coal my ass.


The US Department of Energy says it is. And apparantly they mean to keep it that way:

http://www.energy.gov/energysources/electricpower.htm

"America – and much of the world -- is becoming increasingly electrified. Today, more than half of the electricity generated in the United States comes from coal. For the foreseeable future, coal will continue to be the dominant fuel used for electric power production. The low cost and abundance of coal is one of the primary reasons why consumers in the United States benefit from some of the lowest electricity rates of any free-market economy.

"The Department’s Office of Fossil Energy is working on ways to keep coal in America’s electricity future. The key challenge is to remove the environmental objections to the use of coal in tomorrow’s power plants. New technologies being developed in the Fossil Energy program could virtually eliminate the sulfur, nitrogen, and mercury pollutants released when coal is burned. It may also be possible to capture greenhouse gases emitted from coal-fired power plants and prevent them from contributing to global warming concerns.

"Research is also underway to increase the fuel efficiency of coal-fueled power plants. Today’s plants convert only a third of coal’s energy potential to electricity. New technologies in Energy’s Fossil Energy program could nearly double efficiency levels in the next 10-15 years. Higher efficiencies mean even more affordable electricity and fewer greenhouse gases.

"While coal is the nation’s major fuel for electric power, natural gas is the fastest growing fuel. More than 90 percent of the power plants to be built in the next 20 years will likely be fueled by natural gas. Natural gas is also likely to be a primary fuel for distributed power generators – mini-power plants that would be sited close to where the electricity is needed. "

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Arnold
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 807
Location: Steubenville, OH

2/3/10 7:11 AM

Now brake problems for Toyota

On the new Prius no less:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/04/business/global/04prius.html

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djdickson
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 230
Location: San Diego, CA

2/3/10 7:22 AM

Obviously

No one would notice an accelerator problem on a Prius.

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jimbo
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3208
Location: SW Virginia

2/3/10 7:38 AM

You're right double d

Seldom does the accelerate get used for more than getting the vehicle started. ;-)

Actually it is not a high performer but,it will climb hills if necessary.

Also the gasoline cost per mile is roughly 4-5 cents.

On a trip I was able to average 60 mpg. That drops the variable cost a little too.

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Tom Price
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 505
Location: Rochester, NY

2/3/10 10:04 AM

BREAKING NEWS

BREAKING NEWS: Transportation secretary says owners of recalled Toyotas should stop driving them


WOW!

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jimbo
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3208
Location: SW Virginia

2/3/10 10:48 AM

Okay

The government is at work again. Aren't they really effective?

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

2/3/10 10:50 AM

And considering that the government owns GM, are they unbiased?

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Arnold
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 807
Location: Steubenville, OH

2/3/10 11:09 AM

It's the end of the world as we know it

Don't drive a Toyota, cause they ain't safe? who'd a thunk it.

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Mark McM
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 1254
Location: Boston, MA

2/3/10 11:56 AM

BREAKING NEWS UNBROKEN!


quote:
BREAKING NEWS: Transportation secretary says owners of recalled Toyotas should stop driving them



Transportation Secretary says, "Oop, my bad!":

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35216587/ns/business-autos/?GT1=43001

"WASHINGTON - Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told owners of recalled Toyotas to "stop driving" their vehicles, but later said he misspoke and advised owners to bring their vehicles to dealers if they were concerned.

"LaHood made the comments in testimony before a House Appropriations Subcommittee on Transportation.

“'What I said in there was obviously a misstatement,' LaHood said.

"Department of Transportation spokeswoman Olivia Alair said the DOT was advising owners to contact their local dealerships to arrange for fixes as soon as possible.

"Toyota's most recent recall in the United States affects 2.3 million vehicles over the potential for sticking gas pedals.

"LaHood told reporters earlier in the day that Toyota owners should contact their dealer immediately and 'exercise caution until repairs can be made.'"

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jimbo
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3208
Location: SW Virginia

2/3/10 12:15 PM

Mouth open, brain off

Think before you speak.

At that level, he needs to find other employment.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

2/4/10 9:03 AM

I reverse my reponse

Now with the Prius issue hitting the news, this is going to be a lot of damage indeed!

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Alenhoff
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 240
Location: Detroit, MI

2/4/10 9:39 AM

Who's next?

As a Detroiter, I'm tempted to react to Toyota's problems with some glee. But there are two scary things about this situation:

1) You can hardly imagine a company that had more positive equity with its customers than Toyota. If that kind of loyalty could deteriorate overnight, what does that say for virtually any company? (And I'm not just talking about auto companies.) Brand loyalty is a thing of the past.

2) Every automaker makes improvements to its cars over their lifecycle. The vast majority of those changes don't correct serious safety issues, so there is no reason to recall and retrofit the cars on the road. But this is a judgment call, and virtually every automaker must be sweating over the possibility that some over-zealous reporter will now write that that Company X fixed 22 problems on the 2008 Putt-PuttMobile, but never recalled the car.
Look out for a feeding frenzy of these kinds of stories.

Alan

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

2/4/10 10:09 AM

" If that kind of loyalty could deteriorate overnight, what does that say for virtually any company?"


The same thing it sez for multi decade employees getting walked to the door with no compensation from that point forward. Poetic justice ???


"so there is no reason to recall and retrofit the cars on the road."

Unless the cost to resolve said issues is lower than the cost to not, especially for the self insured maybe ??

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

2/4/10 12:24 PM

I would not hesitate to buy a Toyota today. Anyone remember the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration media frenzy with the faked demo? Audi was seriously hurt in the US for some years after that.

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Arnold
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 807
Location: Steubenville, OH

2/4/10 4:28 PM

I think it was in '86, my sales rep for Reebok, picked up a slightly used Audi 5000 for a fraction of what it was worth before the unintended acceleration fiasco.

Many in the auto industry felt Audi's problem was an older clientele switching from traditional large US sedans to their first Euro car, and were not used to the closely placed pedals. They inadvertently hit the gas instead of the brake, during slow speed maneuvers and as the car moved forward, they pressed down even harder, thinking they were going to stop it. Lots of garage doors were taken out ;)

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jimbo
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3208
Location: SW Virginia

2/4/10 5:51 PM

Arnold I suspect that

You just hit the nail on its head. ;0)

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Alenhoff
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 240
Location: Detroit, MI

2/4/10 8:21 PM


quote:
"so there is no reason to recall and retrofit the cars on the road."

Unless the cost to resolve said issues is lower than the cost to not, especially for the self insured maybe ??


I think you missed my point. The vast majority of these "fixes" have nothing to do with safety. Might be a minor trim issue, or adding a more effective radio antenna, or altering the exhaust "note" to make the car sound more pleasing, or finding a way to improve the mileage slightly by specing a different tire. All the manufacturers learn things by having their cars on the road, and try to respond to them.

That doesn't make the older cars defective or unsafe. Nor is it reasonable to pull your 2008 car into the dealership and demand that they retrofit it with every improvement they've built into the car since you bought it.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

7/13/13 6:30 AM

Looks like theyrebounded just fine from this problem.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

7/14/13 6:16 AM

Zombie Thread?


quote:
Looks like theyrebounded just fine from this problem.

True. I guess the word that "unintended acceleration" is a driver error, not an automatically dangerous vehicle defect, got to the public's notice. There is no car, particularly the Camrey, whose brakes won't overwhelm its engine IF you actually step on the brake.

The Prius story turned out to be a deliberate fraud too.

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