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Groenewegen is in some deep sheit I'd say...
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/5/20 5:13 PM

Groenewegen is in some deep sheit I'd say...

Google it, it ain't pretty.


I shoulda really said: "Fabio Jakobsen" is in some deep sheit really...


Last edited by Sparky on 8/5/20 8:22 PM; edited 2 times in total

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2693
Location: hillbilly heaven

8/5/20 5:43 PM

That was an ugly crash. It seems to me that someone could invent barriers that were less dangerous for the riders. Did those barriers have feet that stick out into the riders path?

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4726
Location: Nashua, NH

8/5/20 6:11 PM

Wow, he pulled a real "Cavendouche" move! I'm surprised, as he's always seemed like a sensible, respectful guy...for a sprinter. ;-)

He deserves whatever penalty comes his way. Simply being DQed isn't enough.

The barriers didn't cause the crash and they didn't have feet sticking out; Groenenwegen forcing Jakobsen into the barriers caused the crash. In the video, it looks like he threw an elbow block at him.

Here's wishing Jakobsen a full and speedy recovery, though it sounds like he has a serious head injury, as they're keeping him in an induced coma.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2693
Location: hillbilly heaven

8/5/20 6:51 PM

I looked at it on my large computer screen and those barriers were the stupid type that have the feet out in the riders path. They had those banners on them which were angled back.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/5/20 7:12 PM

As to neurological injury, this [below] seems slightly optimistic from a team statement if reported accurately..

But if his brain swells, which is highly possible, his outlook will change immediately I'd guess.

>His team, Deceuninck-QuickStep, later put out a statement: "Fabio Jakobsen’s situation is serious but at the moment he is stable. Diagnostic test didn’t reveal brain or spinal injury, but because of the gravity of his multiple injuries he is still kept in a comatose condition and has to remain closely monitored in the following days at the Wojewódzki Szpital in Katowice.

Not camera man: "airlifted hospital in a serious condition, as was a course-side official who was impacted by the crash."

eurosport.com: "sustaining a substantial loss of blood, a cerebral cranial injury and a broken palate."

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Tom Price
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 467
Location: Rochester, NY

8/6/20 8:52 AM

Video Link

https://youtu.be/OMobj6UZpso

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/6/20 2:51 PM

cyclingweekly



Patrick Lefevere (Photo by Tim de Waele/Getty Images)

Deceuninck - Quick-Step
Top story

Deceuninck-Quick-Step’s manager Patrick Lefevere has said that the team will file a formal complaint with the police following a horrific crash on stage one of the Tour of Poland.

Fabio Jakobsen was severely injured when hitting and then flying over a barrier after being forced into one by Jumbo-Visma’s Dylan Groenewegen in the closing metres of the sprint in Katowice.

The Dutch sprinter is in an induced coma in hospital and his condition has been described as stable.

>>>On Wednesday night he underwent facial surgery with Lefevere saying that “all the bones in his face are broken. It’s really bad.”

Doctors will try to wake Jakobsen up today. Lefevere added: “His condition is serious. Fortunately no vital organs have been hit, he is stable, but the next few hours are important.”

In the aftermath of the crash, Lefevere took to Twitter to claim that Groenewegen’s actions were criminal and that “they have to put this guy in jail.”

The UCI has already announced that it will investigate the sprint, with Groenewegen potentially in line for repercussions.

In an interview with Het Laatste Nieuws, Lefevere did not backtrack on his comments and instead reiterated his view, insisting that he will lodge a complaint to police in Poland.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2496
Location: Canberra, Australia

8/8/20 6:36 AM

I don't think Groenewegen did anything that sprinters don't routinely do - close the gate on someone coming up between you and the barriers. It's just that on this occasion the outcome was particularly bad, mainly due to the inadequate and substandard barriers. I had coffee this morning with some cycling friends, a couple of whom were pretty good national level sprinters in their day, and they didn't think that Groenewegen should be unduly punished.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4726
Location: Nashua, NH

8/8/20 7:09 AM

You're absolutely correct that he didn't do anything that we haven't seen many times before. Lefevere is understandably upset, but his comments about this being criminal are way out of line. If there were to be criminal charges filed, it would create a classic "slippery slope" that would damage the sport irreparably.

Bike racing is dangerous. Being a sprinter is even more dangerous. Sprinters choose to take that risk, knowing full well that at some point, they are going to hit the deck hard. That doesn't excuse Groenewegen's actions, which were clearly against the rules, but he's been penalized for it and there may be more to come from the UCI. This is a matter that should remain within the sport's jurisdiction.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/8/20 9:15 AM

Will Groenewegen get back on the horse I wonder. I have to agree on the legal prosecution. But it also does not mean Lefevere is just attempting to force the UCI's hand with that stunt either..

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3310
Location: NorCal

8/8/20 12:10 PM

It seems only a matter of time before someone with deep pockets (who can be found liable for the thoughtless construction of those barriers) will be forced to pay for rider's injuries or death.

True, the sport remains dangerous, and the athlete/entertainers already know this.
Most pro sports have deaths every so often which somewhat goes with the territory of pushing (really shoving) limits.
But it shouldn't be acceptable not to take reasonable measures to make the sport safer, if only for the economic bottom line of the teams and promoters.
I would think that the various insurers will find it worthwhile to force the issue on this.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/8/20 1:26 PM

Whom ever laid out that 80km/h finish needs a good 1/2 hr. of getting kicked in the nuts.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4726
Location: Nashua, NH

8/8/20 3:22 PM

What am I missing here?

It was a long, straight run-in on a smooth road that was plenty wide. They used barriers that were angled backward and allow the riders to use the full width of the road without their pedals, bars or elbows getting snagged. Keep in mind that the primary functions of the barriers are to define the course and keep spectators under control; they're not supposed to absorb impacts.

So, exactly what more do you want?

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/8/20 3:33 PM

I don't actually want anything per se, being I am not the one sprinting downhill. My critique if not clear is that sprints would be safer if not on a descent. Rather planned for a flat or slight ascent to abate speed at the line.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4726
Location: Nashua, NH

8/8/20 3:57 PM

Fair enough, that certainly wouldn't hurt.

Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 8/9/20 9:50 AM; edited 1 time in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/8/20 4:17 PM

Let's just say it might hurt less. ;)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4726
Location: Nashua, NH

8/9/20 9:51 AM

Uh...yeah. :-)

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6453
Location: Maine

8/9/20 11:40 AM

Well

You can talk about barriers and speed and good ol’ boy sprinters, but this horrific accident occurred because Groenewegen intentionally rode Jakobsen into the barrier at about 45 mph, then finished him off with an elbow and body lean. I don’t see anything accidental about it. Groenewegen I’m sure didn’t intend this serious an injury, but he sure didn’t care about crashing Jakobsen in a high speed pack.

I fail to see why this should not be criminally actionable. It would be if it happened on the street. If this is considered OK among the sprinters, all the more reason IMHO. Then maybe you’d see a change.

This was not a hard crash from a touched wheel. It was fully intentional.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/9/20 12:55 PM

"finished him off with an elbow and body lean."

I am seeing opinion that there is the possibility of a bar hook and subsequent unbalance is why Groenenwegen may have had his hip off the saddle and the body lean toward the barrier/Fabio side.

>>Same line close-in cause/fault of course.

Even seen a short motion gif of that event horizon.

But the UCI/jury/body with need to do close examination.

I am not seeing the usual double down caven-douche denial demeanor coming from Groenenwegen either.

Not sure what I see frankly..

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4726
Location: Nashua, NH

8/10/20 6:30 AM

If you look at the view from above, it's clear that Groenenwegen was trying to block Jakobsen with his elbow and G's line squeezed J into the barriers. It was clearly intentional and would surely have resulted in a protest and disqualification even if it hadn't caused a crash.

I don't doubt that this was an "in the heat of the moment", adrenaline-rush-fueled action, as is often seen in sprints. That's not an excuse, as it still should never happen, but the fact is that it does. To a large degree, it's the nature of the beast.

To his credit, Groenenwegen apparently realizes that he was wrong and regrets his actions. Hopefully, he'll learn something from the experience.

While it's clear that G intended to block J and that resulted in the crash, it's not evident (and highly unlikely) that he intended to [i]injure[/] him. I'll defer to Dan's legal expertise as to whether this is actionable, but repeat that if cycling goes down that road, the sport as we know it is dead. We'll ultimately end up in a situation where every time someone makes a simple mistake and causes a crash, they get sued. Every time a rider hits a barrier or "road furniture" and gets hurt, the race organizer gets sued.

Bicycle racing is dangerous; everyone knows that. I would love to see what's in pros contracts and whatever waivers they sign.

More important than this debate, has anyone heard anything more about Jakobsen's condition?

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/10/20 9:56 AM

Out of surgery, awake, no neurological damage, that is all I have got so far.

"The team say Jakobsen is able to move his arms and legs and communicate with doctors but that speaking and eating will remain a challenge after the maxillofacial surgery."

"The most important thing is that he is alive," team manager Patrick Lefevere told HLN. "Priority number two is to restore his face. Fortunately, no vital organs have been hit, but all the bones in his face are broken and he has lost all his teeth. It's really, really bad."

"The patient is conscious, follows orders, is disconnected from the ventilator, so he is breathing alone”

"He is also fully conscious. He can't talk yet but is communicating via text message."

So I guess same stuff you are all seeing on the internets

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6453
Location: Maine

8/10/20 11:32 AM

Legal stuff

I’m not expert in that type of law (even in the US, let alone Poland!) but I don’t think participating in a sport is a defense where the conduct is intentional. And I think you can draw a line between that sort of conduct and incidental crashes. And criminal liability is different from a civil suit, which would be more affected by contractual provisions. But I don’t think riders should be protected where the conduct is intentional.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17946
Location: Portland, OR

8/10/20 2:15 PM

If there was no intent to brutally hurt him, and only consequential result was exactly that...

Or is that for the sentencing phase?

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6453
Location: Maine

8/10/20 2:37 PM

Intent

Like I said, I’m no expert, but I think in many jusrisdictions there is a class of crime something like “don’t intend to injure but don’t really give a sh*t whether it does or not.” Something like “reckless disregard.” It’s pretty foreseeable that riding someone into a barrier in a 45 mph pack could cause serious injury, whether you want that to happen or not. And I don’t think feeling bad afterward is a defense. Just my $.02.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4726
Location: Nashua, NH

8/10/20 3:24 PM

You're most probably correct, but I doubt it will come to that. It never has in the past and it's happened a lot over the years. Relegation and disqualification, and possibly a fine is about all that happens and that's all from the UCI. I've never heard of a rider being charged criminally for actions that injured another rider. I have heard of fans being arrested for injuring riders, but in those cases intent is usually more evident.

Looking back at the video, it appears that Jakobsen hit the support tower for the finish banner. Based on the the descriptions of his injuries, the impact must have been with his face. Perhaps the towers need to be farther from the course and I don't see why they shouldn't be heavily padded as well. It's a place where you reasonably could install impact absorbing material; even a couple of hay bales would be better than nothing.

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