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Dan, howís your kayak shopping going?
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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4528
Location: Nashua, NH

7/16/19 8:53 AM

Here's the most important thing you need to know!

It's about canoes, but it applies equally to kayaks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BDsDd4_30&feature=youtu.be

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/16/19 10:31 AM

Lol!

Too true.

Applies also to bikes, skis...

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6294
Location: Maine

7/16/19 11:57 AM

Iím immune from that

I base that on the small number of bikes that I own.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17506
Location: Portland, OR

7/16/19 12:10 PM

I am a little bit in awe on Brian's savvy on this topic. I had only noticed snippets in previous treads. Perhaps due to lack of interest on my part.

Damn dude.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4528
Location: Nashua, NH

7/16/19 4:45 PM

On what, owning too many boats?

April posted a lot of good insights on kayaks. There are a couple of things I'd like to add:

A good way to think of differences in initial stability in non-breaking waves is that a really stable boat is like dropping a board on the water. When waves hit it from the side, because it's a relatively flat surface, it's forced to remain roughly parallel to the surface of the wave, which means the boat has to lean, sometimes considerably, which can lead to a capsize if the paddler doesn't edge and brace effectively.

A less stable boat is like throwing a log (actually half a log) on the water. When a wave hits it, it encounters the rounded shape and the boat isn't forced to lean; the wave just rolls under it.

Of course, the above is an exaggeration of actual boat shapes and performance, but you get the idea.

-----
Directional stability has a couple of components which are independent of each other, the inherent directional stability - which is typically called "tracking" - and "weatherhelm" stability, which I'll explain in a moment.

Tracking is a boat's resistance to turning and it's similar to the handling of a bike. A certain degree of tracking is beneficial, as it reduces the need to constantly correct the boat's direction, but too much makes a boat difficult to maneuver, potentially dangerously so. I'll give an example of that below, too.

Beginners tend to like boats with fairly strong tracking, as it masks and mitigates deficiencies in their paddling and boat handling skills. OTOH, experienced paddlers - particularly those who like to play in surf and rock gardens - lean toward boats that are more maneuverable, since they can control them readily and take advantage of their characteristics.

Weatherhelm refers to a boat's directional stability in wind . There are three potential states:
Weathercocking is the tendency for a boat to turn into the wind (upwind).
Leecocking is the the tendency for a boat to turn away from the wind (downwind).
A boat is considered Neutral if it doesn't tend to turn one way or the other in wind.

Weathercocking can be frustrating and tiring to counter, but it's easily corrected with a skeg or rudder or by shifting weight into the stern of the boat. This is one reason that care is required when packing gear in a kayak.

Leecocking is potentially dangerous, especially if the boat also tracks strongly. For example, if you're paddling in an offshore wind, a boat that leecocks will be difficult to turn toward shore and has the potential to be blown out to sea. My old Nordkapp HM was like that, with strong tracking and a tendency to leecock, and it was a pain to deal with. This is why most boats are designed to weathercock to some degree, it's safer.

Neutral boats are pretty rare and I've only owned one.

It's also important to know that - for reasons that are too complex to get into here - weatherhelm is affected by forward speed. The faster you go, the more tendency the boat will have to weathercock.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6294
Location: Maine

7/16/19 5:08 PM

Dudes

Iíll be lucky to remember which side to paddle on to turn...

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17506
Location: Portland, OR

7/16/19 5:13 PM

One side, then the other?


I'd not be the first to crash into rocks from too many on the wrong side of the boat I bet..

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4528
Location: Nashua, NH

7/17/19 10:35 AM

Dan, once you have your boat, check into whether Nigel Foster is going to be doing any classes in New England this year. His 1-day "Wind and Waves" course will teach you more about boat handling than you could learn on your own in a decade. He has a better understanding of the dynamics of kayaks than anyone else I've met. He's also a lot of fun to hang out with!

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6294
Location: Maine

7/17/19 3:02 PM

MIKCo blowout

Big sale, make an offer. I have a demo scheduled before the magic day, have no idea what a reasonable offer would be. The 3 piece looks kind of interesting as it may be easier to transport, but I expect there are trade offs. All thoughts welcome! I know Brian doesnít really like NDKís in the first place.

https://www.maineislandkayak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/New-NDK-Sale-Flyer-2019.pdf

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4528
Location: Nashua, NH

7/17/19 8:14 PM

The flyer says that all boats have a reserve price, so you may want to inquire what they are.

A 3-piece boat is certainly easier to transport inside or in the bed of a vehicle, but it's probably the fact that it's easier to store that makes it attractive to most would-be buyers. Unless you own a pickup or a large SUV, you'll still need a roof rack or a trailer. The downsides are higher cost, increased weight and some minor loss of performance due to the latches on the hull. It's a reasonable trade-off if you can truly benefit from it.

I've made my feelings known about NDK boats and I'll leave it at that. Just make sure you check any boat over very carefully before plunking down your cash.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/17/19 9:04 PM

3-piece

The 3-piece design is only ever offered on the Explorer, because its targeted users are expedition kayakers who need to fly their boat to remote corners of the world frequently. So the cost can be justified. So does the extra weight. Itís not intended to be taken apart every weekend. (But Iím not passing any judgement as to whether it will stand up to such use, as I donít know anyone who does that)

Keep in mind the 1-piece Explorer weights upward of 50lb. So the 3-piece will be more once put together.

As Brian pointed out, only if you could benefit from it. A 17í boat broken down 3 ways, each piece is still up to 6í long. You need a long bed pick up to carry it inside. Itís no easier to store than a 1-piece.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4528
Location: Nashua, NH

7/18/19 2:12 PM


quote:
Itís no easier to store than a 1-piece.

That depends. For a apartment dweller, it's a lot easier to find storage for 3, ~6' pieces than one 17' piece. Homeowners who don't have a garage or basement could store it in a small shed. So, there are advantages.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/18/19 2:49 PM

I used to be an apartment dweller.

I had a white water ďplay boatĒ which, at 6í or so long, is about the same size and weight of ONE of the sections. It alone took up a big chunk of space, and was a pain to man-handle around doorways, stairs or other tight space. I have a hard time imagining doing that THREE times! And the space of 3 of those chunks takes up significant space.

In practice, most people just leave their boat under some cover (deck, stairs, a tarp etc.). In which case, one long piece or 3 short ones are more or less the same.

Dan, you should just ask Tom about the sectionals. He would know more about how his customers like it. I have not personally met a single non-professional paddler who owns a sectional.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6294
Location: Maine

7/19/19 6:01 AM

3 piece

Thanks, it is probably not for me. I was just thinking maybe I could throw it in the back of my wagon, but probably not, or even if I could it would require contortions more of a PITA than just using a rack. I donít have storage issues.

I think the Greenlander Pro is cool, but probably not the boat for a rookie like me. Maybe a Romany Classic or Surf.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4528
Location: Nashua, NH

7/19/19 8:33 AM

The Greenlander Pro is actually a pretty big boat, not really much like a true Greenland boat, despite the name. My recollection is that it's not as maneuverable as the Explorer, but it's a bit faster.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/19/19 1:12 PM

The best selling of the family are the Romany Classic and Explorer.

Iím not too familiar with the ďnormal sizeĒ line-ups, now that thereíre smaller models for me to try on. The Latitude looks interesting though.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6294
Location: Maine

7/20/19 1:31 PM

Layup?

OK, what think you about me getting Kevlar, hybrid or fiberglass layup? Assume cost is not an issue, lightness has some value, and Iíll likely bang it around a bit.

I am influenced by this which I found following up Brianís fiddle tune. I normally would look askance at parodying Hank Williams, but I like this one:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz_cPaydAyE

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/20/19 3:18 PM

If cost (both purchase AND potential repair) isnít an issue, go kevlar.

Itís significantly lighter, which is better for your back and joints in the long run. Also, kevlar is actually very strong. So potential repair is in practice quite unlikely.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4528
Location: Nashua, NH

7/21/19 4:33 AM

Conversely, fiberglass is cheaper and easier to repair. If it's properly laid up, it can be light weight, but it's a material that's relatively tolerant of sloppy hand-layup construction and it comes in forms that shouldn't be used in kayaks, like sprayed chopped strand. Fiberglass handles abrasion better than other materials.

Carbon fiber and Kevlar require better construction techniques in order to realize their benefits; otherwise, you end up with a weak, heavy, resin-rich laminate. I would not buy a c/K boat that's not constructed using vacuum bagging or resin infusion. The placement of these materials within the laminate is also very important. A high-quality carbon/Kevlar sea kayak can easily weight weigh under 40#. P&H makes some really light carbon/Kevlar boats.

Love the song!

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6294
Location: Maine

7/21/19 3:33 PM

Weights

Yeah the Romany Classic CK is 38.6 lbs, the expedition layup (fiberglass) 52.9. Iím sure I could get by with the expedition, and Iíve never hoisted a kayak to a roof rack, but with my various orthopaedic and other issues, Iím sure lighter is better. So I go out Thursday and weíll see.

And with the CK I can pack my cast iron skillet and bag of cement. :)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17506
Location: Portland, OR

7/21/19 4:46 PM

Dan, if you have the means, that is a lot lighter. And we [will not?] likely won't be getting stronger each year going forward as much as I wish I could be wrong about that.

If you want to pawn that Sachs, let me know...

Not to mention Aorta dilation. Pretty sure 50+ lbs over your head... My cardio guy said not more than 100 lb., easy I was already at 60... But the hernia doc lowered it to 35.
I did not tell him about the 18) 80lb bag cement project I did a few weeks back. But I did no dead lifting either.

How is that shoulder anyway?

Apologies if I sound like someones mother...

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6294
Location: Maine

7/21/19 5:56 PM

Lifting

I have to examine transport, but in any case I donít think any doc will tell me I canít lift 50 lbs. With the aneurysm I am told to avoid heavy lifting causing grunting (valsalva maneuver) which I think is above 50 lbs. But there is nothing wrong with a margin of error, and Iíd pay the cost differential for the weight differential, all else being equal. Incidentally just had yearly scan of the aorta and it is not changing.

Shoulder is fine thanks. I don't really think about it much. Of course I also have a crappy back and knee, but these are more or less under control..:)

Donít worry I have an assistant who serves as my mother.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17506
Location: Portland, OR

7/21/19 6:30 PM

"Incidentally just had yearly scan of the aorta and it is not changing."

I have reasonable confidence my re-scan in November to net same result, or non result.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/22/19 5:57 AM

Nigel Foster in New England


quote:
check into whether Nigel Foster is going to be doing any classes in New England this year. His 1-day "Wind and Waves" course will teach you more about boat handling than you could learn on your own in a decade. He has a better understanding of the dynamics of kayaks than anyone else I've met. He's also a lot of fun to hang out with!

Not exactly ďNew EnglandĒ, but not that far from Portland.

https://www.bofsks.com/pre-and-post-sessions

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4528
Location: Nashua, NH

7/22/19 6:04 AM


quote:
the expedition layup (fiberglass) 52.9

IIRC, the expedition layup is an extra-heavy glass layup, though perhaps that's what they're calling their 'glass boats these days.

NDK weights have always been extremely suspect and I wouldn't trust them without verification on a scale. In the past, they were quoted without hatch covers and deck rigging, which is as insane as quoting a bike weight without the wheels. I've seen Explorers that were well over 60# when fully outfitted (the current claimed weight for a standard layup is 55-57#). Caveat Emptor!

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