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Dan, how’s your kayak shopping going?
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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6308
Location: Maine

7/22/19 7:08 AM

Layups

well I dunno the only choices for Romany and most other NDKs at MIKCo are CK, hybrid and expedition. The do have a couple rotomolded models as well.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/22/19 7:58 AM

Assuming the same "fluffiness" of quoted weight for both layup, the weight difference is 14 pounds between the two layup. That's a big difference. Again, if money isn't a prohibition, I'd say CK.

I have no idea NDK's track record on CK layup. I would expect to be similar to their glass layup?

Given this is your first boat, which I think you have a high probability to change up in a couple years time, the build quality isn't as big an issue. With MIKCO's support, you should be fine. If the boat turns out to be a lemon and you don't want to keep long term, you can always sell it after a while and get another brand. By then you'll know more of what you want.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Portland, OR

7/22/19 11:03 AM

Is there a difference in the boats in as far as different material flexing different as far as performance/handling etc.? Or are they well tuned in lay up for each material etc. Or is that a non issue unlike with a bike frame?

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/22/19 11:24 AM

flexing of a boat???

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Portland, OR

7/22/19 11:28 AM

My question exactly, is stiff as a board a good thing? Or is there some design flex component.

Total ignorance on the subject obviously?

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/22/19 11:32 AM

You do realize a boat is "riding" on a surface of water?

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Portland, OR

7/22/19 12:05 PM

Or on your roof? ;)

I don't know if shicaning thru white water rock gardens and flex are a thing. Not?

I guess also on the subject of ocean going boat VS white water, moot?

Just trying to sort it in my head. One reason we have not taken the plunge perhaps... Just rent crap plastic ones on the occasion. Increased interest though, now that my wife is Lyndsey Wagner... She is in the sewing room doing a 45 min spin/trainer session as I type this. She is the one that gets us to the water when we do rent, me being a land rat.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4548
Location: Nashua, NH

7/22/19 5:59 PM

Kayaks do flex, but composite boats don't flex much along their length. Most flexing is localized due to water pressure or impacts in a given area. Rotomolded boats are typically more flexible than composites. Cedar strip/glass boats can be stiffer, but stitch & glue plywood/glass boats are similar in flex to composites. Some skin-on frame boats - baidarkas -are designed to flex along their length and all of them have considerable flex in the skin, with some degree of flex in the frame.

In terms of performance, I haven't seen any scientific studies that indicate whether flex in a kayak is good or bad. The main thing is that unlike a bike, flex in kayaks doesn't affect transmission of propulsive forces to the water. It may affect drag and thereby overall efficiency of the boat.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/22/19 6:27 PM

Irrelevant

First, unlike average cyclists, most kayakers are not obsessed with speed.

Sure, flexy boats MAY has less glide on perfectly flat lakes. Except no one paddles exclusively on glass smooth lakes. Consequently, nobody cares.

On less than perfectly flat water? My suspicion is flexy boats glides just as well as stiff one, OF THE SAME HULL SHAPE!!!

Basically, the glide efficiency of a hull is so strongly affected by the shape, the stiffness is nothing but an insignificant perturbation.

Like, obsessing the aerodynamic of a climbing wheel!

Or the weight of a tt wheel

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Portland, OR

7/22/19 7:07 PM

Asking=obsessing?

I am going to get off at this bus stop.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/22/19 7:39 PM


quote:
I am going to get off at this bus stop.

Thanks.

Now we can continue with what’s relevant.

Bye.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Portland, OR

7/22/19 8:00 PM

And that is necessary, why?

Very much NOT in the spirit of this forum in as much as helping assimilation of information. Just because it is not cycling should not matter either.

Balk!

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/22/19 8:32 PM

There’s a difference between assimilating information and random walk in space!

(When a pupil ask a random question in a class, the teacher knows whether that’s a meaningful question that will benefit the rest of the class. Or the pupil just wants attention, therefore best ignored)

Perhaps you can instead reiterate the number of or the minute details of you bikes as you usually do?

Do you ever get bored from listening to your own voice?

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4548
Location: Nashua, NH

7/23/19 3:51 PM

Sparky expressed curiosity about whether flex in a kayak is a consideration or not because he didn't know. If you don't ask questions, how are you going to learn? That's what this forum is for, exchanging information so we can all learn.

Granted, Sparky sometimes gets way into the weeds on bike topics, but he'd be the first to admit that. In this case, his questions are absolutely legitimate, basic rather than esoteric, and deserving of an explanation, rather than ridicule. By now, I'm sure that he gets the point the flex isn't much of a consideration in a kayak.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Portland, OR

7/24/19 8:04 PM

Well i can either nuke all your bullshit or just say fuk off.

You dont get to decide what is relivant, or if i nuke your bs.

Smokes!


Second to admit maybe Brian. ;)

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/24/19 8:52 PM

“i nuke your bs. “

So you would nuke the answer to your “question”?

Isn’t that just admitting you really don’t care about the answer? Or at least don’t care if others can benefit from the answer? You just ask the question because you like the echo of your own voice?

First, we decide to forbid politics. Now the mod can nuke anything he PERSONALLY dislike, regardless the benefit to others. Great forum this has morphed into!

As one no longer active former member “EM” once puts it very accurately “cycling forum = sp**ky-blog”

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4548
Location: Nashua, NH

7/25/19 7:00 AM

What the Hell is wrong with you April???

Your constant crankiness is far more destructive to this forum than anything that Sparky has ever done. You jumped all over his case for doing absolutely nothing wrong. If you didn't think his question was worthy of a response, you should have just ignored it and kept your damned mouth shut! Instead, you decided to turn what had been a very helpful and friendly discussion into a personal attack. Nice work hijacking and ruining a good thread, April!

Sparky, you really shouldn't be threatening to "nuke" anyone's posts, assuming that deleting them what you meant. As unnecessarily nasty as April was, it's still best to leave well enough alone, as threats like that just fuel the fire.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/25/19 7:47 AM

"If you didn't think his question was worthy of a response, you should have just ignored it"

I answered his question, in a joking way. He got all sensitive, and threatens to leave the thread alone. LOL

Is this forum NOT a blog? Should I start listing all the blogs unrelated to whatever was discussed in every thread? Or better yet, should I just hunting for threads NOT containing unsolicited blogs by the blogger? The latter would be a much shorter list!

Yes, the forum is pretty dead most of the time except during TdF. So the blogging threads I already safely ignore. But to have the blogs forced down every single thread is damn tedious, making "ignoring it" totally impractical.

Cranky? Look who's talking here!

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4548
Location: Nashua, NH

7/25/19 8:34 AM

What does any of this have to do with blogs? You're just trying to change the subject from your unacceptably rude behavior.

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4380
Location: metro-motown-area

7/25/19 9:11 AM

april -- something always seems to go sideways with you. why dont you take a time-out? it's done wonders for me.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6308
Location: Maine

7/25/19 10:33 AM

Back to the subject

Had a good session this morning with Tom Bergh on Peak’s Island. After some fitting, I paddled four boats, all NDK Romanys - an Excel, a medium - large paddler boat; a Sport (rotomolded similar to a Surf); an Expedition; and a hybrid Surf. I sat in a Classic, but I could barely get my legs in the cockpit (I have large thighs). The best for me was the Surf, which is basically a Classic for slightly larger paddlers. I was comfortable in it and felt well connected to the cockpit. The Sport was similar (and weighed a ton). The Excel’s cockpit was too big and felt loose. The Expedition was OK but I preferred the shorter, more maneuverable Surf.

We put a foam pad on the bulkhead which worked better than footrests (Brian had mentioned this as well).

I would have bought a Surf, but Tom wanted to see me in rough water before selling me anything. I am going back next week and head into some lumpy stuff with him.

Basically, he was focused on getting the right information and not focused at all on selling me anything. He said stuff like “this is info you can use if you end up going somewhere else.” He doesn’t want to sell me CK as it is expensive and fragile, he seems to prefer fiberglass, kind of grudgingly accepting hybrids.

He told me to research a “low moving brace” and I have an appointment next week to get out in some waves.

Interestingly, we talked a bit about cycling and he used to live in Boulder, was roommates with Doug Shapiro (7-11) and sprinter Scott Berryman, knew Phinney, Heiden, etc.

On to the next step!

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4548
Location: Nashua, NH

7/25/19 12:03 PM

Awesome! I've never met Tom, but I've heard nothing but great things about him. Frankly, if it wasn't for him and the excellent service he provides to his customers, NDK would be dead in the US.

I tend to agree with him regarding fiberglass vs. carbon and Kevlar, which is why I only own 'glass boats. Considering that you have expressed interest in playing around in rock gardens (how can you not when you live in ME?), 'glass makes the most sense. A hybrid with a 'glass hull and CK deck would be reasonable, since it's the hull that's going to take the most abuse. Whether it saves enough weight to be worth the extra cost is up to you.

It's great that you found a boat that fits well, but I'm curious if he suggested looking at any of the other boats he has? If you need the extra room of the Surf, don't even bother to try the Pintail or the Outer Island, as you're not likely to fit comfortably.

I assume that by "low moving brace" he just means leaning on the paddle in the low brace position while the boat is moving, rather than practicing low braces while standing still. With water flowing under the paddle blade, you can lean on it pretty hard as long as you keep the leading edge angled upward. It's something that becomes second-nature really quickly and it's entirely possible that you've already done it. Regardless, you'll likely use it a lot when surfing, whether you're just catching a following sea on open water or waves at a beach.

I didn't realize that Tom is a cyclist. The connection to the 7-11 crew is pretty cool!

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6592
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/25/19 1:06 PM


quote:
he was focused on getting the right information and not focused at all on selling me anything. He said stuff like “this is info you can use if you end up going somewhere else.”

The only reason you'll be "going somewhere else" is if he doesn't have a suitable in the brands he carry. If you're getting a NDK, it'll be from him. End of story.

In that light, I can understand why he wants to see you in rough water. Basically, the Romany Surf is a bit larger than you "need". So there maybe other brands that has lower volume boats which you can still get into the cockpit of.

Speaking of "getting into" the cockpit, my white water boat is so tight in the cockpit opening that I had to twist and wiggle to get in. Though once sat down properly, I was reasonably comfortable and can stay in the boat for hours on end. Initially, I questioned whether I would be able to wet exit if need be. But I was told once the boat is upside down, I would "fall out" easily. That proved to be correct.

So is your issue with the Romany Classic is with getting in, or being comfortable staying in? If it's the former, it maybe worth re-considering. If it's the latter (your thighs too big for the space under the deck), it would point to a boat with a somewhat higher deck.

“low moving brace” -- I confess I've never heard of that term. But I think Brian's guess is right that probably means staying on a low brace position while the boat is moving.

Though I wonder if he actually meant a "low brace turn". On flat water, the boat isn't going to keep on going forward straight due to the drag of the paddle on one side. It's bound to turn towards the side you're bracing on. Except while surfing, when you're actually riding on a sheet of moving water.

[PS]
Now that I saw walter's suggestion that I take a time-out. Well, I can do better than that. After all, kayaking is pretty tangential topic in a "cycling forum" to begin with.

Since you're in pretty good hands with Tom, there's really no need for me to add anything in the topic.

Who knows, I may even join Even Marks in leave sparky blog for good.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6308
Location: Maine

7/25/19 4:03 PM

Couple things

Brian, Tom didn’t recommend other boats. He really was just trying to gather information as to what would work, not sell me a specific boat. He even mentioned I could talk to a woman whose name I don’t remember, who sold Valley boats. He said they were excellent boats. Like I sometimes tell potential clients they can talk to other lawyers. He is not commercially motivated.

April, take my word for it, the Classic was not even close. I had to twist and scrape to get into it, and once in I could not even move my legs and felt like my legs were in compression shorts. On a long trip I would be concerned my legs would fall asleep. It was not even a boat Tom pulled after meeting me, I just asked about it, and he said let’s try it. It is rated 120-200lbs, I am 195-200, and confident in saying I have larger thighs than the large majority of 200 lbers. Not sure why the Surf is too big, it is rated 150-220.

By the brace I think he means the move to prevent capsizing, and by “moving” to angle the paddle so it is lifted and not sucked under if the kayak keeps moving. He emphasized this several times. If I have this wrong it is my fault and will be straightened out. I think he mentioned it to help me avoid dumping the kayak in lumpy water.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4548
Location: Nashua, NH

7/25/19 4:23 PM

Bracing is a basic skill that refers to a variety of ways to use the paddle and the water to support yourself.

A low brace essentially means pushing on the water with your paddle below your elbows.

A high brace refers to pulling on the water with the paddle above your elbows. It's typically used when you have to lean into a wave coming from the side. You can also use a high brace to recover from a capsize, if the paddle is in position when you go over.

A sculling brace refers to sweeping the paddle back and forth in the water, keeping the leading edge up to provide lift. It can be done from either the low or high position.

There are multiple minor variations of these braces.

You may also hear the term "balance brace". This is actually a method that Greenland hunters used to rest on the water. It requires a boat with a low aft deck, lots of flexibility and a buoyant paddle (typically a Greenland stick). When properly executed, you're literally laying on your back in the water, with the boat rolled away from you - supporting your hips - and the paddle held above your head on the surface of the water.


Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 7/26/19 12:56 PM; edited 1 time in total

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