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Road bike sales
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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2505
Location: hillbilly heaven

5/1/18 2:43 PM

Road bike sales

I've been watching some high end road bike frames and I am stunned by the lack of desire for a pure road bike frameset that will only fit maybe a 25mm tire max.

I've seen a serotta ti with 1 1/8 headtube not sell for $900, a Look 585 sit at $650, and a Time VXR only got a max bid of $200 on ebay, below the reserve obviously. These are $4000-$5000 frames a few years ago.

My local bike shop said they hardly carry any true road bikes anymore, as they just cant sell them. Only bikes that take fat tires and many people are afraid of resale on a rim brake bike, so lots of disc brake bike sales.

Part of the problem locally is the roads are just horrible, so skinny tires are no fun.

Nothing better than a true road bike on good roads.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

5/1/18 2:58 PM

I can't give away my Addict LTD/HMX. Some bigger 25mm tires on wide rims on the chainstays have 2-3mm side clearance max. I keep 15C wheels with 25 tires that are 25mm on it. the extra height is there the narrow rims push the tires to.

Luckily if I am stuck with it, it rides pretty nice for a race bike with the 25s. I may make it Di2 only and do a creative paint scheme, or maybe a sick ultra light single speed.

On that note, the SLR 10 RSL Di2 Dura Ace Aeolus 5 tubular, just dropped locally from $7500 to 6000.00 again.

It had popped back to 38% off just after I almost pulled the trigger for 50% off back when I posted about it.

I have been grabbing the Colnago since finished, and leaving the plastic behind. ;)

Saw less disc endurance bikes on the club ride last week than expected. Especially considering it is in between season, so to speak.

A lot of nice lugged steel, and especially dolled up older stuff with more current components, tread?

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6037
Location: Maine

5/1/18 4:34 PM

Road bike riders

Go to any road bike event, whether a citizen time trial or century, let alone a race. How many people do you see under 45? De minimus, as we say in the legal biz. Young folks just don't give a flying fork (cycling image!) about fast road riding. Why that is is beyond my pay grade, but there just aren't many people out there who will pay much for a good road bike.

I love road riding, and my Domane allows great road riding while also getting into washboard dirt without worrying about tire size, but not many other than guys like me will shell out for that. The Sachs to me is a consummate pure road bike, it would be interesting to see an age profile of Richard's clientele.

I see folks riding around on pavement in summer on fat bikes.

I just hope folks of all ages keep turning the pedals.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

5/1/18 5:06 PM

"I just hope folks of all ages keep turning the pedals."

True Dat!

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6426
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/1/18 7:52 PM


quote:
I am stunned by the lack of desire for a pure road bike frameset that will only fit maybe a 25mm tire max.

Tire size limitation isn't what makes a road bike.

(Besides. just because the frame will take 28 mm tire doesn't mean you can't use 25 mm tires. But the reverse is not true)

People who race will buy racing bikes. Those who don't race?

There didn't used to be any other kind of bikes for the road but de-tuned racing bikes. So anyone who ride the road had no other choice but to get a racing oriented "road" bike.

I speak from personal experience. I never wanted to race. But I had no choice for a long time. As soon as the "club ride bike" came out, I jumped on it. But it still didn't take >25 mm tires.

I went to cross bikes as soon as I found one that fits. But I'm an outlier.

Finally. we now have bikes that can take 28+ tires, and are NOT squirrelly on less than perfect roads. What's not to like?

It's not the lightest. But what's a pound or two? I got about 20 lbs on you! ;) And if I don't? That extra lb or two won't make any difference anyway! Remember, I'm NOT RACING!

It's not "road bikes" sales down. It's been artificially high due to lack of alternatives. Now that the more suitable options are available, those who never wanted a road bike to begin with, are not buying any "road bikes", aka racing bikes!

That's all

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/2/18 5:44 AM

Dual-purpose/All-road/gravel/'cross bikes...

...will be the dominant player in the market shortly and into the future. Linda has decided that her Cannondale SuperX is going to be her main ride now. She used it for the Muddy Onion last weekend and when we came home, I put together a set of road wheels with 28mm Schwalbe One Pro tires and now she's using it for road riding, 1x drivetrain and all. I suspect that she's indicative of what newer, non-racing riders will be doing. After all, why spend big bucks on multiple bikes when you can buy one bike and extra wheels and cover all of your needs for a lot less?

I still can't bring myself to give up featherweight, dedicated road bikes for heavier 'cross bikes that don't handle as well. I'll keep mine for use in the dirt, I also like tighter-spaced gearing, which means sticking with 2x drivetrains. But I've already made the investment and I can't imagine many new riders bothering to do so, unless they get into road racing.

I saw a review of a bike recently that actually comes with both 700c wheels with road tires and 650b wheels with knobbies. That sounds like a potential trend.

BTW, mounting the Schwalbe tires on Stan's rims without using tire irons was quite an ordeal. Hopefully they'll stretch out a bit; otherwise Linda will never be able to fix a flat on her own.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

5/2/18 11:40 AM

"both 700c wheels with road tires and 650b wheels with knobbies. That sounds like a potential trend."

Let's do. Main issue I learned is BB height and tire sizes you will use limit this more than you might be willing to accept. But! VS a CX bike, gravel bikes do have lower BB heights and make the multi use of one bike more doable IMO. But I do NOT run the 650b wheels on my Strong after trying them, considering I built new 700 and 650s for the bike. Now the 650b with 2.1 MTB on my 29er [where they are and will stay] transformed it from truck-like to a much more nimble demeanor.

Then there is the rotor alignment from one wheel to the other. I went center lock, and still caliper adjustment to avoid drag is needed. And all Shimano Center locks and same rotors. I suspect it is in the Rotors...


"BTW, mounting the Schwalbe tires on Stan's rims without using tire irons was quite an ordeal."

Yet another thread? ;)

My last install was the WH-6800 with Sector 28 tubeless, a breeze. Don't get me started on the Pacenti SL23 V1 rims. I gave up the idea after a few tries. For fear of having to boot or tube one due to a casing cut or non seal out on the road.

I am fast at flat fixes, but this is an operation out on the road you'd NOT want to do.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/2/18 12:06 PM

Rotors...

...aren't an issue on my road bikes, because they all still use rim brakes. However, on our 'cross bikes and MTBs, I've had to do some adjustments to make wheels interchangeable. One advantage of 6-bolt rotors is that you can get shims to put under the rotors to adjust the spacing. Perhaps there's something available for Centerlock rotors.

What I've found is that in most cases, the rotors on different sets of wheels are close enough to each other (within .010" or so) that all I need to do is to tweak the rotors a bit and they'll interchange. I also keep them true within ~.002", which also helps.

I refuse to adjust disc calipers when switching wheels; that's just crazy talk!

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2505
Location: hillbilly heaven

5/2/18 5:06 PM

When I ordered my custom frame I had it fitted with disc and canti mounts. Thinking I would go disc, I built 3 sets of wheels out of the same hubs and rims, and bought 3 sets of identical rotors. I refuse to have to adjust anything to change wheels.

Then I decided to run canti brakes and have never built it as a disc brake bike.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6426
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/2/18 6:00 PM

Since we’re on the subject, how does disc brake wheel swapping compared to typical rim brake adjustment when swapping wheels?

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3228
Location: NorCal

5/2/18 6:19 PM

Different rims might require pad adjustments, even re-angling the pads in extreme cases. Most disc rotors will be identical in thickness aside from wear.

Some disc brake caliper setups can take a long time to get aligned to high standards, so not something that one wants to repeat.

Disc brake wheels may or may not be rim-brake capable.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6426
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/2/18 6:37 PM

I mean in terms of real world function...

How perfectly does it need to be aligned? As long as it stops the bike.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/2/18 7:16 PM

It's important, but not that difficult

You can buy brake pad shimming tools that make the process pretty easy:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=brake+pad+shim&_sop=15&_osacat=7294&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR2.TRC3.A0.H0.Xbrake+pad+tool.TRS1&_nkw=brake+pad+tool&_sacat=7294

It is important to get the pads parallel to and centered over the rotors in order to get even pad wear and optimum braking.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

5/2/18 8:54 PM

Another issue is not scratching inside stay or fork leg with the rotor inserting the wheel. I wish I saw it before it mucked up the clear coat on the Strong. I'd have put some Kapton tape there... Well I did, but would have liked it better before I started mucking it up. ;)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/3/18 5:29 AM

I've had more issues with scratching chainstays, but yeah, you do have to be careful. It will be less of a problem when all rotors have rounded edges, but many still don't.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3228
Location: NorCal

5/4/18 4:37 PM

"...How perfectly does it need to be aligned? As long as it stops the bike."

When a caliper is less than perfectly aligned, it forces the disc to flex, which does a few bad things.
The pads and rotors wear more unevenly and are heated less evenly.
The pads do not clear the rotors as fully with the brake released, requiring the disc to be straighter to a much higher tolerance, which is a tall order for any well-used disc/rotor.
The lever travel becomes mushy as it takes a lot of lever and pad travel between first contact and flat contact of the braking surfaces between pads and disc.
The mushy brake actuation reduces the modulation performance by requiring longer/slower corrections of the braking force, so actuation occurs later and recovering from any break in traction is also late in coming.

I check my caliper alignment with the rotor by going outside onto a sun-lit surface and looking down through the caliper, able to see the small gaps lit up.
Applying the brake should show an absolute minimum of movement, flex or twist of the rotor as full braking actuation occurs. This is the goal.
Such visual observation thus is suggestive of whatever correction in the caliper's alignment is needed, but it can be a very iterative and repetitive process in order to get a great adjustment, with "solid" (CLANK) feel at the lever as pad contact with the rotor occurs. Modern calipers and mounting hardware make this job much easier, like crazy-easy in many cases, as one only needs to loosen the bolts, squeeze the lever and then tighten the bolts, at least in theory.
I sometimes need to go looking for a mounting bracket with a slightly lower height in order to incorporate orbital/swivel washer pairs on both side of both caliper mounting tabs, which seems very odd since the swivel washers need to be on both sides to allow actual swivel action. Otherwise, the pads may sit too high on the rotor's braking track. Better/newer parts seem to set up easier.

Of course this is much the same as with adjusting rim brakes, with detail differences such as toe-in and pad height complicating rim brake setup.
Either setup might require readjustment after any wheel swap.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/5/18 8:05 AM

Post-mount calipers are pretty easy...

...since they're very adjustable, but the newer flat-mounts seem to be a step backwards in terms of ease of adjustment. They don't use spherical washers, so you can only adjust the alignment in one plane. If the the mounting surfaces and bolt holes aren't perfect, the pads won't sit parallel to the rotor.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6426
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/5/18 9:59 PM


quote:
Of course this is much the same as with adjusting rim brakes

I've been swapping wheels with rim brakes for many years. Can do it with my eyes closed. Don't ever recall any issues. Basically, I can set it up so no adjustment is needed when swapping wheels.

Does that translate to no-brainer swapping disc brake wheels? In real world, if I'm getting out the door in the morning to join a ride and I need to swap wheels to suit the route, will the brake work? Or will it rub and/or squeal like a stucked pig?

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/6/18 9:57 AM

If you set them up properly...

...interchanging wheels is a snap. Linda and I do it all the time on our 'cross bikes and MTBs. It helps somewhat if you use the same hubs and rotors for all of your wheels, but it's not a necessity. I have yet to find two pairs of wheels that are different enough to be a problem.

In the case of Linda's SuperX, it uses Cannondale's proprietary AI rear spacing that makes her wheels specific to her bike (or another AI bike), but the two sets of tubeless wheels I built for her interchange perfectly, as do the Zipp tubulars that came on the bike.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6426
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/7/18 10:15 AM

Thanks. That's what I was hoping to hear.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

5/7/18 10:35 AM

Brian, are you rocking IS or Post mount stuff?

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/7/18 12:02 PM

Mine are all post mount...

...but Linda's new 'cross bike is flat mount. Actually, one of my old MTBs my be IS mount, but I'm not sure off the top of my head. That one has two sets of wheels that I interchange and I don't recall any specific issues with it.

One thing that really helps is if you have a truing stand of some sort with a rotor truing gauge. If not, you could jury-rig something on the chainstay, seat stay or fork blade to allow you to check and true the rotors. Although I have a rotor truing fork, as often as not I just tweak them by hand, either with a clean glove on or a clean rag to prevent contaminating the rotor. A clean adjustable wrench makes a good rotor truing tool, too.

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Anthony Smith
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 840
Location: Ohio

5/10/18 8:31 AM

Chicken or the Egg

Every bike is a tool and has its purpose. IMHO a road bike is for road riding and road racing. Anyone who rides a cross bike, tri bike, TT bike, gravel bike, hybrid, mtb on the road is using the wrong equipment for the job. What has been lost is the want/ability to ride a century or so on a real road bike, pedaling circles in a double echelon.

We are repidly losing both road races ( including criteriums) and centuries to "charity rides" and Grand Fundos (races which are not really a race.

Why no younger riders in the road scene, simple, lack of races. When I came up in my prime, early 1970s to the mid 1980s there were at least 2-3 P/1/2 races within a couple hour drive, with low entry fees and lots of money (paid 20 places deep plus primes). It was easy to be a good 1 or 2 and make several hundred to several thousand dollars in a weekend. Heck in 1984 I rode 123 events as a Cat 1, won five, but more importantly only didn't place in the money in 11 and only didn't make money in 9 (primes).

Now there is limited racing, high entry fees, and minimal prizes.

Plus on the non-racing road side, there is either a competitive ego boosting rider who just tries to drop people on group rides (what ever happened to limiting training rides to 42x17 gears) but is afraid to lay it down in a real race, and whiny comfort seekers who complain about proper position, pedaling at the correct cadence, and generally lack toughness and athleticism (what ever happened to the hard men).

There is also a strange specialization and tribalism within groups of cyclists. There are a very few people who cross worlds. I race road, criteriums, track, XC MTB and cyclocross, and have often gone and done several disciplines in a short span (ie track race Friday night, road (or criterium ) event on Saturday and maybe a XC MTB race on Sunday. At any of those events, even within the same geographical area, I see only a very few faces who move from one event to another and simply consider themselves "bike racers". Instead people define themselves as Time Trialist, or Roadie or Trackie or Mountainbiker without ever seeing the big picture.

There is also the constant changing of equipment. There is no longer such a thing as a simple road bike that just does the job. We have all kinds of wicky/wacky shifting systems, caliper, direct mount, disc brakes, non standard rear overlocks, a multitude of competing BCDs and chainring choices. Its no wonder the market is just dying.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6426
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/10/18 8:53 AM


quote:
There is also a strange specialization and tribalism within groups of cyclists.

History has proved "specialist" get better results.


quote:
on the non-racing road side, there is either a competitive ego boosting rider who just tries to drop people on group rides (what ever happened to limiting training rides to 42x17 gears) but is afraid to lay it down in a real race, and whiny comfort seekers who complain about proper position, pedaling at the correct cadence, and generally lack toughness and athleticism (what ever happened to the hard men).

Isn't that contradiction obvious to anyone? "Non-racing" and "toughness" DON'T go together!!!

Sure, the "competitive ego" is annoying to those of us who aren't competing. But that's the whole point of the "comfort seekers". You can't have both. If you are racing, stop complaining about those who don't. And don't bother showing up on non-racing groups and pushing the pace!

Road racing is a mentality. There're those who enjoy the completion AGAINST OTHERS. And those who don't. The two don't mix well.

Triathlons and Grand Fondos (even mtb races) are more about beating the clock. The decline of road race and the exploding popularity of tri and Fondo is a sign the general population is sick and tire of the dog-eat-dog mentality, but still want to be the best they can be, in their own terms .

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

5/10/18 9:04 AM

I can say I prefer riding among the 'race mentality riders', skill level is higher. With our club I can't say I feel safe in close proximity to the riders. And I get stinky eye or folks get pissed when I am not on the front and ride 2“ off their wheels when behind. ;[

Last edited by Sparky on 5/10/18 10:25 AM; edited 1 time in total

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