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Pardon me?
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/24/17 9:32 AM

I guess not everyone is sick of calling out and Trump threads afterall...

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

7/24/17 11:32 AM

What I find ironic about the difficult decision faced by many voters who have similar political beliefs to Brian, is that many of other different beliefs to you also felt that Clinton was a bad choice. Not sure Sanders was a good choice either, but at least he didn't have the freight train of baggage Clinton has.

I do find it sad to think that you (Brian) made that choice for Trump, thinking he might not last a year.

Clinton likely would have lasted longer, though with many opposing her choosing to initiate impeachment proceedings almost immediately. Certainly and with a Republican held Senate and H of R, Hillary would have been in the same situation as Obama, unable to open or sustain a dialog with opposing legislators. Perhaps the ACA might have been better protected and while it certainly needs changes, is far better a piece of legislation then what McConnell has failed at shoving down peoples throats. Possibly HC might have been able to reach out to the Repub's in Congress and found a middle ground, hard to say as there was a LOT of issues with HC.

I agree with April that Clinton would have suggested a middle of the road SCOTUS justice, possibly not a strict constructionist as Scalia or Gorsuch, but palatable none the less, so eventually no harm done to the Conservative agenda.

But then there are many other choices Trump has made to other positions, Scott Pruitt comes to mind as an example of having the fox guard the hen house at EPA. Tillerson at State as well, has probable conflicts of interests as former head of Exxon and the ties to Russia. Or DeVos at Education, who has to be one of the dumbest possible picks that could be made. These all seem like Trump is thumbing his nose at the Democrats, and then he has the gall to complain that they won't support his agenda.

The current state though is that Trump is so overwhelmingly incompetent as well as mentally unbalanced that he is simply unable to do the job. NOTHING is getting done, NO new legislation is getting passed, and all Trump can do is tweet absurdities.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/24/17 12:35 PM

It IS truly sad...

...to have to vote for someone under the assumption that he would fail, but for me, there was no other choice. As odd as it may seem, if Sanders had been the democratic nominee, I would have been tempted for vote for him. Even though I don't agree with him in many areas, at least you know where he stands and the Republican Congress would have kept him in check, and vice-versa.

Once Trump is out the door, I expect that many of his nominees will be replaced, too. With Trump disgraced, it seems that the politically astute thing for his successor to do would be to promote a "clean slate" policy of undoing the executive order damage, replacing the unqualified appointees and patching relationships with other world leaders. Will that happen? Sadly, I doubt whoever replaces him will go very far down that path.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/24/17 12:55 PM

Good luck

Impeachment is extremely cumbersome and I believe unlikely. We've got him for 4 years (hopefully not more).

While he has a base, some of his voters were low income folks who need Medicaid, believed what he said in the campaign, and may not be amused.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/24/17 1:47 PM

Perhaps so...

...but he is extremely unpopular among congressional Republicans and it won't take many "defectors" to vote for impeachment and conviction if he's caught doing something as heinous as colluding with the Russians to influence the election. If he preemptively pardons anyone, that will set off a firestorm and he's sure to be impeached for obstruction of justice.

There isn't a snowball's chance in Hell that the Supreme Court would find that a President can pardon himself, since if that is possible, you no longer have a President, you have a king. The Founding Fathers went to great lengths in order to prevent that and made it abundantly clear that was what they were doing. This a case where having "originalists" on the court will be critical, as they will vote based on the will of the Founding Fathers, not some modern reinterpretation of the language of the Constitution. I almost hope it gets to that point, just to get a ruling on this once and for all.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/24/17 1:56 PM

single issue voters

"some of his voters were low income folks who need Medicaid, believed what he said in the campaign"

He did say he'll repeal ObamaCare, which Medicare expansion was a significant part of. So it's no surprise a "repeal" would go the "other" direction. I doubt that's what those voters "believe in" amongst all the things he said during the campaign.

Many of his supporters BELIEVE he'll "bring jobs back to America". Well, there's not much I get to say about that. Being my ENTIRE CAREER is spent to eliminate jobs and replaced them with computer programs! I don't know WHERE these people "believe" Trump will bring those jobs back from? Ban the internet???

Others voted for Trump because their stand of anti-abortion, anti-immigration, anti-gun-control, etc. I bet they feel strong enough about those issues they don't mind losing Medicare or their jobs or whatever they have to preserve that.

On the Dem side, many feel strongly enough to vote for a donkey just the same. It's not that hard to understand either. If you're gay, all the job Trump promise to "bring back" won't do you much good if you're being openly discriminated from getting the jobs because of your sexual orientation. You have no choice but to vote for the "other" side.

I voted for Hillary, in the primary AND in the presidential, precisely because I don't want the two extremes. She's obviously not an ideal candidate. But had there ever been one ever?

But sadly, trying to walk the middle ground is a losing proposition in today's hostile environment.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/24/17 2:14 PM

Impeachment

Dream on!

My prediction is, it won't happen before the end of 2018, if it happen at all.

Why? To a Republican controlled houses, to impeach him is to admit they were all wrong in putting him on the party ticket in 2016. We know admitting mistake is suicide for politicians. So no, it won't happen. Not until Democrats take back the Senate.

So, even in the most optimistic case of impeachment being brought upon him sometime 2019, he can easily drag it out till the end of his term.

I have said from the beginning, he won't get to do much damage AS LONG AS the two houses still function as they ought to be. They can stop him from doing anything at all. This is proving to be the case so far.

I'm going to sit back and enjoy the comedy of Mr. Trump serving out his full term doing precisely nothing!

I'll also get to enjoy the side show of the Republican party getting squeezed by Mr. Trump and the volatile crowd that WAS the Republican base.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/24/17 3:13 PM

April, you're forgetting...

...that the majority of Republican politicians did not want Trump to be the nominee and many were vehemently opposed to him. Most have gone along with him grudgingly since he was nominated and elected, essentially being good party soldiers. But Trump is doing so much damage to the party that as soon as there is a good opening, I'm confident that you'll see them abandon him en masse.

I agree with you that impeachment will likely take until sometime in 2019, but if Comey can build a solid case, the hearings won't take long and I wouldn't be too surprised if Trump "picked up his marbles and went home", either before being impeached or before the hearings, so he could continue to claim that the system is rigged.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/24/17 3:33 PM

Brian

The Republicans had underestimated Trump from the beginning. They've been wrong all along. I don't believe he will "pick up his marble...".

Instead, I fully expect him to double down and "just stick it to the man"!

What that means is he'll drag it out till it past his end of term. Thus claiming he WON, despite the system being rigged against him.

Yes, everyone loses. But the biggest one will be the Republican party. It will look like they abandon him alright. But the party can't take credit for ousting him because they most likely won't be able to accomplish that.

It's the classic "making a pack with the devil". The "pack maker" ALWAYS loses, because the devil being A DEVIL and does not behave as expected!

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/24/17 5:06 PM

Good luck again

Whatever Brian, IMHO it ain't gonna happen. No way these republicans are going to vote to impeach a republican president. And I don't give a rat's a$$ about his pardon power, it would not apply to impeachment in any case. No sense on arguing, we'll see what happens. And if you're relying on Thomas to enable impaeachment, yikes.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/24/17 5:12 PM

Single issue

April, Trump said he would provide health care for everybody and it would be better than Obamacare. I didn't believe him, but lots of people did. People eligible for Medicaid are dirt poor. I represent many people on Medicaid and many with no health insurance. For these people, if they understood that an election would make the difference between having insurance or not, for many no issue would be more important.

And they also may realize Trump isn't getting their coal mining, etc jobs back.

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Tom Price
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 505
Location: Rochester, NY

7/24/17 6:02 PM

The case for collusion

In my eyes collusion is very apparent. The big question is when the Republicans will start putting country before politics.

https://youtu.be/nEOhXhj1QXI

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/24/17 6:59 PM

Until the nausea hit I listened to the SOB deride Obamacare in a speech with a group of victims behind him. As he outlined their tales of woe a few things came to mind:

-There are more facts in some of the stories than conveniently fits in a partisan speech.
-The states these people are from have a lot to do with the insurance problems they face.
-There are some good ideas to fix the ACA and no good ideas to replace it and lots of reasons to not repeal it.

Don't get me wrong, the people behind DJT have as much right to affordable health care as any and all of us. But those bleachers would easily have collapsed under the weight of people who benefit from the ACA.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/24/17 7:10 PM

Tom Price: That Olbermann series is priceless.

If anyone wants to just get down a solid list, bullet by bullet to win any argument against a Trump defender - all they need do is grab a pencil, open a spreadsheet, or whatever, and work their way through Keith Olbermann's GQ Resistance series on YouTube. The guy documents it so well he doesn't need to rely on opinion.

I got hooked with his ~79 Reasons~ before inauguration. The first fifty were all home-runs. After that there were some bunts and triples but every one made it to base.

Resist
Peace

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/24/17 8:40 PM


quote:
if they understood that an election would make the difference between having insurance or not, for many no issue would be more important

Dan, I mean it exactly in my post that for many, their single issue IS the only issue. My example of gay voters are precisely that. I live in New York where a lot of gay people lives. This is also a very fiscally conservative crowd. Many would have prefer to be Republican but for their anti-gay conservative stand. So I do understand those who voted for Trump if they BELIEVE he'll get them insurance.

My problem had always been with the voter, not the candidate. If they're so dumb to actually believe what nonsense candidate Trump's promise, they deserve to suffer the consequence.

I know, those are harsh words. But I don't know of a better way to put it. In a democracy, some do get what they wish for. So everyone should really, really BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH!

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Tom Price
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 505
Location: Rochester, NY

7/24/17 8:54 PM

Update on AG Sessions

The Washington Post is reporting that President Pussy Grabber will be firing Sessions soon. If Mr. T makes a new appointment while the Senate is in recess, the appointee (Guiliani?) can serve without being confimed by the Senate until the end of the year. The Post is reporting that this move is being done to make way to fire Mueller. If this occurs it will make Trump look extremely guilty.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/24/17 9:46 PM

extremely guilty'er'?

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/24/17 10:01 PM

very clever!


quote:
If this occurs it will make Trump look extremely guilty.

So what?

I don't know what people are thinking. He was a businessman. It's his nature to exploit every single legal loopholes to his advantage!

So it makes him look guilty or extremely guilty really doesn't matter to him. He's not looking for a long term political career. So he doesn't have the same baggage as other "regular" career politicians. He doesn't have to "look" good for the next election.

The only way to stop him is to nail him with ACTUAL illegal activities! In his exploitation of legal loopholes, it's easy to cross the line. Just have to find what that is.

Instead, everybody is still celebrating how bad this or that make him "look", as if it matters. It doesn't! A waste of time (and internet bandwidth, and TV air time, and ink).

The devil doesn't have to follow the usual script made up for "normal" politicians..

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/25/17 5:15 AM

Firing Sessions...

...would just put him that much closer to a charge of obstruction of justice. Firing Mueller would be the tipping point. At that point, you have an impeachable offense without even proving Russian collusion. That's not to say that Trump isn't stupid enough to do it; he really doesn't seem to have any grasp of the limits of what he can get away with.

Besides, Congress could easily put Mueller and his staff in charge of their investigation, which is beyond Trump's influence. It's a no-win situation, but I don't think that Trump is bright enough to see that.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

7/25/17 8:20 AM

Impeachment is too toxic and cumbersome. I really do not think it is necessary when the President will eventually fall on his on sword. It takes time for a position of power to be ostracized. Better to do a symbolic "vote of no confidence". I don't recall that ever being done for an American president.

As for Sessions, Trump expects extreme loyalty, but gives none in return. There are thousands of government positions left unfilled. Who will want to work for him? (rhetorical).

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

7/25/17 8:28 AM

It's amazing what someone can do when your daddy gives you a couple of hundred million to play with.

Trump is a huckster, a snake oil salesman, and that's all he has ever been. He's a businessman only in the sense that he has a business. His numerous bankruptcies shows he's not a particularly good businessman.

What he clearly is, is a man with absolutely no moral compass. I have no doubt that he has knowingly laundered money, engaged in fraud, and breached as many contracts as he could get away with.

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greglepore
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 1724
Location: SE Pa, USA

7/25/17 9:41 AM

Parkin nailed it.

Personally, I hope he fires Sessions. That will turn the Republicans in the Senate that have been playing hear no evil. Sessions was not my kind of guy, but he had friends among his colleagues.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/25/17 9:56 AM

So what is this new ploy to Sessions to open up prosecution on HC in DTs mind I wonder.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

7/25/17 5:34 PM


quote:
Trump expects extreme loyalty, but gives none in return.

I think anyone who had half a brain had long ago figured out Trump will have zero loyalty in return. I suspect many who accepted position in his administration never planned to be loyal to him to begin with, "extreme" or otherwise.


quote:
There are thousands of government positions left unfilled. Who will want to work for him? (rhetorical)
I would work for him! ;-)

Being fired by Trump might actually help many of those career, for being a "stand-up guy".

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/25/17 6:54 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong. Trump's bankruptcies are strategic.

Through bankruptcy court he renegotiates the contracts he is indebted to.

The powerful real estate lobby has passed friendly legislation and he is able to evaporate his black hole of debt through the hawking radiation of tax breaks over the years.

He pays for a 15 story structure, gets revenue from a 40 story structure and never pays taxes.

The subcontractors don't have a monolithic lobby because they are the trades and they have individual concerns to accomplish their craft that may not directly involve finance like the real estate lobby. Hence, they don't get tax breaks and when they get paid 10 cents on the dollar they go out of business.

I believe he phrases it as "that makes me smart," and the base in states where he does no business admires his pluck. And the same demographic despises him in places where he has bankrupted the blue collars.

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