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Stage 4 SPOILER
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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

7/4/17 5:31 PM

Stage 4 SPOILER

I think Sagan got screwed. Cavendish tried to make a gap that was not there and almost took out Sagan, who probably would have won the stage if Cavendish had not tried to go thru.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/4/17 5:33 PM

Agree, he took 2nd loosing 1st by almost nothing...

But Cav was coming up the side or not at all.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/5/17 4:57 AM

Sagan absolutely got screwed!

Cav did yet another of his boneheaded desperation moves which caused his crash. Sagan was doing nothing other than trying to stay upright and the now infamous elbow didn't come out until Cav was already on his way to the ground, as Sagan was trying to regain his balance after Cav hit him in the hip. This was classic Cavendish and it's at least the third time I can recall him doing something incredibly dangerous and stupid like this. Hopefully he's out of the race and perhaps if he's done for the season again (as after the Harrowgate crash he caused), he'll finally learn something.

I find it very suspicious that the initial ruling of a penalty of 30 seconds and 80 points was inexplicably increased to disqualification. The ASO has been doing everything they can through rule changes to try to prevent Sagan from winning the green jersey again and I strongly suspect that they had a hand in getting him disqualified.

At the same time as Cav was crashing, Demare was cutting a full 3 feet from right to left, hitting Bouhanni's front wheel (he miraculously manage to stay upright), which is a clear violation of sprinting's "hold your line" regulation, but wasn't penalized for it. Why? Because he's French, plain and simple. Bouhanni's team didn't protest, probably for the same reason. In any other circumstance, a sprinter doing that would have been relegated.

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LeeW
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 453
Location: near Baltimore, MD

7/5/17 5:53 AM

Put me down as a fourth

I agree that Sagan got screwed.

It appeared to me to be a tale of 2 camera angles. The angle from behind looked incriminating against Sagan with the "apparent" elbow action, while the view from the high front made it evident that Cav was trying to squeeze through an inadequate gap and was already leaning into Sagan when Peter held out his elbow to defend his space and maintain his balance. What a travesty of a DQ.

I also couldn't believe the BS coming out of Jim Ochowicz's mouth at the nbc post-race discussion panel. Was he seriously trying to state that every rider in the sprint had an acute awareness of exactly where every other rider was and of the spatial relationships when he was condemning Sagan's action? Was he serious? I hope the Kool-Ade tasted good.

I've watched probably thousands of hours of video footage from grand tours and classics, stood near the finish line at stages of the US Pro in Colorado, and even raced as a lowly Cat 4 decades ago, and I've rarely seen a sprint finish with a dozen riders or more that wasn't total chaos. A sprinter has suffered over hill & dale for 150 km and suddenly finds himself boxed in will take desperate chances to advance their positions. Everyone knows where everyone else is? Heck, you can often see leadout men looking back trying to figure out where their sprinter was.

I don't know what his agenda was, but he didn't come across as very knowledgable. The makeup of riders chosen to support Porte doesn't seem too swift either for that matter (maybe 1 climber and the rest rolleurs).

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/5/17 7:18 AM

The latest news I heard...

...is that the management of the other teams were ushered into the jury room to give their opinions of what should happen to Sagan. So basically, you've got a bunch of people - likely with ulterior motives - weighing in on a rival's punishment. It's not even known how much of the video any of them saw before the meeting. When you see people like Andre Greipel first criticizing Sagan, then defending him after seeing the video, it really makes one wonder how fair this process is.

Apparently, the race jury said it was trying to "make a point" about not tolerating "aggressive sprinting", in which case Demare should have been relegated as well.

This seems like just another UCI cluster-f**k, essentially professional cycling shooting itself in the foot, yet again.[/i]

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/5/17 9:36 AM

Cav caused this basically, this is probably political above Sagan in his team structure. If anything, Cav should be relegated from what I saw.

One of the worst calls I have seen in cycling. More morons that are just ruining my pleasure with this BS! ;0


BTW, what the fuck is up with those barrier pads at the junctions that stuck out that Cav got hung on. Who the fuck decided these were a good idea?? I do not recall seeing those before.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/5/17 11:09 AM

I think the premise is...

...that it would be better to hit a foam pad than a steel pole. It's rather hard to argue with that logic.

Now if they only had those pads laying down along the road surface in front of the barriers during the prolog, there might be a few more riders still in the race.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/5/17 12:40 PM

"better to hit a foam pad than a steel pole"

I guess so, also maybe some of the logic is the bar width and the pad VS the barrier feet. Designed as a secondary purpose to keep the wheel a bit further out from the feet maybe?

But once the pad gets torn off, it is like the secondary hit after the airbag already deployed in your car. Side note, we knew of someone in NJ that happened to actually. Older couple in a Towncar, the Dr. in the Carrerra that caused the accident was a changed person. We knew him.

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

7/5/17 1:01 PM

OTOH,

In this Velonews slo-mo video, it looks like Cavendish is not falling until Sagan pushes Cavendish's head with his arm. Not his elbow. Cavendish was in error by trying to do a head butt and force Sagan over, Sagan reacts and uses his upper arm against Cavendish's face, thus forcing him into the barrier.

https://gifs.com/gif/sagan-s-elbow-DRmVKy

That to me is a blatant move by Sagan, one the TdF judges could not ignore.

Full DQ, not sure, but Sagan had a few complaints in recent days, for his elbows flying into other riders.

And I LIKE Sagan and thick Cavendish is a d**k, mosty.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/5/17 1:24 PM

These sprinters are a fraternity. How about debriefing them after every stage, together, with the jury, to say "Bob, that was dangerous and everybody, if you do something like that tomorrow / for the rest of the race, you can expect to be penalized or ejected. Put some retired green jerseys on the panel for the debrief / roundtable.

Thanks for the GIF Steve B. --It's interesting looking at Demare's rear wheel too. Did he clip the guy behind?


Last edited by daddy-o on 7/5/17 1:40 PM; edited 1 time in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/5/17 1:39 PM

Looking more and more as we all are, the pad does not stick out past the barrier feet. The barrier is slanted back away it seems. The pad is flat and horizontal on the race side. Cav was just against the slanted barrier material.

We will all have an opinion based on what we see and think we see. I maintain Cav got what he bargained for and had no biz trying to make a hole there. But lets face it, it's not like the first time we have seen this... long before Cav was born I figure.

I think the powers that be upper the ante after the fact. The fact being an open fracture. I give the call several thumbs down.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/5/17 2:02 PM

Sagan's reaction was natural

What would you do if some hit you in the hip/side and knocked you off-balance? I daresay that you would push back, too. That happened to me in the early miles of a race once, when someone tried to squeeze between me and the edge of the road when there was no more than a foot between my wheels and the end of the pavement. I had to hold my ground and force the other rider off the road to prevent him from pushing me into the rider on my left, potentially causing a pileup. There was no intent to cause injury to anyone, it's about survival at that point and like Sagan, I wasn't about to let anyone making a really stupid move crash me (I'd had that happen before, too). Riders who make bad choices sometimes have to pay a price for them; that's just an "educational" racing experience. Unfortunately, Cavendish is apparently a very slow leaner!

To Cav's credit, he has been very gracious about the whole affair, which is completely unlike the self-important, entitled Cav of years past. It seems obvious that he knows that he was at fault, but can't or just won't admit it.

Demare hooked Bouhanni severely and hit his front wheel pretty hard. The fact that he didn't crash is testament to his bike handling skills. If it wasn't for the Cavendish/Sagan debacle providing drawing everyone's attention, he might have been penalized too (deservedly so), but the likelihood of that happening to the first French sprint winner in 11 years is about zero in the Tour. He'd just about have to shoot someone for that to happen. ;-)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/5/17 3:07 PM

"To Cav's credit, he has been very gracious about the whole affair, which is completely unlike the self-important, entitled Cav of years past."

Some flip flopping perhaps, the comment about the courage to nail Sagan Cav made [so I read] is a bit confusing.


I even pulled a wheel to show my wife the gyro effect of the spinning wheel, And showed the slo-mo of bike wag and upper body throw under sprint to help her understand the encounter a bit more. As Brian sez, we all know what happens when you get touched and the extra body English that does ensue to stay upright.

Cav should be the one getting the relegation I maintain. But not sure how much me disliking him and liking Sagan is swaying me. ;)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/5/17 3:45 PM

It's hard not to be biased...

...against a rider you dislike, but that's not the main factor for me. It's the fact that Cavendish has done this same stupid crap before, multiple times. Whether you like him or not, he's a menace when he gets it in his head that he absolutely must win a particular sprint. This goes beyond the normal desire to win and crosses into the realm of a blind obsession that apparently suppresses rational decision making. Unfortunately, other riders inevitably get hurt due to his single-minded stupidity.

Speaking of which, has anyone heard anything about Degenkolb and the other rider who ran over Cav's bike and crashed?

On a side note, here's an idea that might make sprints and the runup to them a little safer. Since the ASO won't make the teams smaller, how about reducing the size of lead-out trains? Say from 3K out, no more than two riders can lead out their team's sprinter. That should slow the pace somewhat and reduce the number of spent lead-out men filtering back through the bunch, which was apparently the cause of Team Sky's crashfest yesterday. It might be a bit difficult to police at first, but once a few sprinters get relegated for violations, the teams will figure out how to make it work.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/5/17 4:03 PM

You just mentioned the reasons I don't really like him. Add the fact that he whines a lot, which a lot of us probably expected him to do regarding this. But the pain meds may be in the equation. ;)

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/5/17 7:16 PM

"reducing the size of lead-out trains?"

That will be tough to implement but listening to Bob Roll and CVV's commentary they mentioned spent leadout men dangerously dropping back like stones, something needs to be done. "Wasted? Stay in the left gutter or your sprinter will be relegated." Like that's a cinch to enforce.

Two finish lines, time and points? But still, the clutch of riders in that GIF weren't bulldozing gutter to gutter.

I just looked at the GIF just to make sure. Pardon my French but WTF was Demare doing?
It isn't like he had to go searching for a hole.
If that's what French sprinters think is being boxed-in it's going to be another eleven years.
He didn't think he had room to go on the right of Kristoff?
He was being a good sport to make sure Sagan had a clear lane?
"Is that Cav I hear, better clear a path."
Bouhanni needed his wings clipped?

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/5/17 7:34 PM

From Steve B's link
It's so big it screws up word-wrap, I'll pull it if it gets in the way.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/5/17 8:13 PM

Maybe Demare heard Cav yelling "OH Bother" and thought to get the fook outta there...

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

7/6/17 7:55 AM

From that angle, everything is foreshortened. It's hard to see exactly when and where first contact was made between Cav and Sagan, or how much space Demare had when he made that move. I need to see an aerial view . . . time to go look.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/6/17 10:18 AM

Helicoptor view get some trees obstruction right at the point you would really be able to tell unfortunately.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/6/17 10:22 AM

The aerial view is partially blocked by trees...

...but you can see Cav hitting Sagan as they go under the canopy. You can also see at the other end that Sagan's elbow in well clear of Cav's head. Cav hit Sagan and tried to push him to the left. Sagan reacted to protect himself, as any sprinter does. That seems to be clear to pretty much everyone other than the apoplectic Dimension Data team management and the idiots on the race jury who want to make and example out of Sagan. He seems to be receiving especially widespread support from other riders.

The only positive comments I've seen about Cav have been about the classy, mature way he has conducted himself in the aftermath and they are well-deserved. I haven't seen anyone defending his decision to try to force his way between Sagan and the barrier. Even beyond the stupidity of that decision, when you consider how many other riders have hit the deck in crashes that Cav has caused over the years, it's not surprising that he's not getting a lot of love.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

7/6/17 12:37 PM

Parkin, for the Demare hook I used the wheel shadows for reference. He had "a tire/rim" of daylight ahead to Kittel's rear wheel, but Bouhanni behind him looks like the overlap was a good section between the rim and hub. Bouhanni even stops pedaling.

I listened to a few minutes of Lance talking about the incident. This clip starts where Lance fires mother nature for putting the tree in the way of the helicopter and the action. Good humor, Lance.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/6/17 2:16 PM

There's no doubt...

...that Demare hit Bouhanni's front wheel. You can see him get way out of shape and struggle to stay upright. I don't think a protest was filed, but I truly believe that it was for political reasons, i.e., a French rider protesting the actions of the first French sprint winner in 11 years and probably getting him relegated for his absolutely blatant line change would cause a huge uproar among French fans. I just don't see Bouhanni's team management having the cohones to do that. The French victory is probably more important to them than the means by which it happened.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/7/17 6:52 AM

The CAS is apparently useless and gutless

They refused to even hear Bora Hansgrohe's appeal of Sagan's suspension.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/7/17 9:18 AM

Sagan has got two high powered lawyers courtesy of the team. Appparently the CAS did not even follow their own rule regarding the action.

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