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Di2 Updating components
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/27/17 9:11 PM

Hey Brian Climber Pod VS Sprinter switches

Now that I have a few rides in with the Sprinter switches on the Domane... I like the climber pod mounted forward better for sure. YMMV

I may hack the sprinter, or just add a climber and move the sprinters lower.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

5/29/17 12:34 PM

For what I was trying to accomplish...

...which was to duplicate Campy-style functionality by adding buttons on the brake levers, the climber buttons in the module obviously won't work. I rarely have my hands in the top-center position, so I wouldn't want them up there, either. My hands are either on the hoods or just behind them 90+% of the time.

After thinking about this for a while and taking Dan's comments regarding simplicity to heart, I think I'm going to go him one better.

Once I get the charger, I'll program both buttons on the right to shift to higher gears and both buttons on the left to shift to lower gears, then set up Synchro-Shift, so the bike will perform double shifts (front and rear together) on it's own, as necessary. This will make it pretty much foolproof on rough roads or trails, as I'll only have to hit either button on the appropriate side (right for higher gears, left for lower gears) to execute a shift. Even with heavy gloves or mittens on in winter, that should be easy.

If nothing else, it will be an interesting experiment.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/29/17 12:38 PM

Just make sure your battery and front junction are compatible with 'Syncro-Shift' so you know the finished math$.

The idea sounds cool actually. ;)

I believe you will need at least the newest internal battery. BT-DN110 AND a PCE-1 ready as some reports of the needed firmware upgrades bricking parts of the system.

If you want to do it wirelessly via the app then you will need the new di2 transmitter EW-WU101(external) or EW-WU111(internal). So add that in, and still may need the PCE-1 if it gets bricked.

Easy to see why [my cheap ars self] I have used oldest firmware up-gradable batteries and junctions. This shit adds up fast. I paid 39.00 for my external batteries, and 34.00 for the older front junctions. Neither will work with the Blue Tooth Module, and both would need to be replaced to do SyncShft.

____
BTW: Sprinter switches are more tactile than the climber. It take less touch to effect the Pod buttons to be sure.


Last edited by Sparky on 5/29/17 1:08 PM; edited 1 time in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/29/17 1:00 PM

A forum post out there:

"Currently, you can do manual syncro shifting, I do it often. I'll cross chain, then press both front and rear derailleurs together to shift onto small front ring and drop down one or two cogs on the back. Works fine."


I wonder if you can't just program some button changes as is to get you part way there?

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

5/29/17 2:20 PM

I do manual double shifts all the time on my Campy bikes

Campy makes that really easy to do, since you can do multiple shifts in either direction in the rear, with a single swipe of a lever.

The Di2 stuff on the Niner is all E-tube compatible, so once I get the charger and can connect it to my laptop, I can can program it as I described. Unfortunately, my Chain Reaction order that was supposed to ship on May 15th has been in limbo for two weeks for some "unknown reason", as I learned today. Hopefully, they'll figure it out tomorrow and get the stuff on the way.

I shouldn't have any firmware issues, as it's all part of the same system and it's designed to work together.

I did learn recently that Shimano - in their infinite stupidity - has intentionally made it impossible to mix road and MTB derailleurs on the same bike, so you can't use an MTB front derailleur with a road rear derailleur, in order to use smaller chainrings (which I was considering). The same is true with an MTB rear and road front, limiting you to a maximum of 32 teeth in the rear. You can use either road or MTB shifters, but both derailleurs must be of the same type. There is apparently no reason for this with E-tube parts other than that's the way Shimano designed the firmware. It seems that they always find a way to screw their customers!

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

5/29/17 2:40 PM

Double shifts

I dunno if there's a way to program the eTap further, but otherwise you tap both for the front, then the left or right as appropriate, and it takes about another .01 second. Still quicker than Campy, which I have used for years. Not saying it's a significant advantage, I don't think anything with e shifting is, but it works.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/29/17 6:50 PM

Ok, no firmware issues. Maybe the way it is now, you add anything to the bus and i think you will find otherwise. Hope you are right.

Just got back from a ride, I like the double shift. But with 18 teeth difference front it is hold for 3 gears rear min while one tap front.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

5/29/17 8:17 PM

I was just messin' with you, Dan

But I was serious about keeping it simple. You made a very good point about that.

OTOH, I don't believe any electronic group is going to do double shifts with multiple up or downshifts in the rear as fast as you can do it with Campy mechanical. It's easy to rip off a front shift with 3 or more gears in the rear in a fraction of a second and based on my experience with Di2 so far, multiple mechanical shifts are easier to control. I imagine that with more time I'll learn how long to hold the button(s) to get 2, 3 or 4 rear shifts, as I do automatically now with mechanical shifting now, but there's still the delay between the first and second shifts, plus the inter-shift delay, that you can't modulate on the fly.

Realistically, the major advantage(s) of electronic shifting are improved durability and shift consistency due to the elimination of cables, and the ability to auto-trim the front derailleur, though the latter isn't necessary for e-TAP (due to excellent mechanical design, ironically). It's not about a shifting speed advantage, except perhaps for people who never really learned to shift mechanical systems well or maintain them properly. I daresay that few - if any - of us here fall into that category.

I don't buy the argument that front shifting is substantially improved and my experience hasn't shown that to be the case. That claim doesn't make any sense considering that you're pushing the same chain across the same chainrings; the only difference is in the power source for doing so. My hands are plenty strong enough to shove a chain onto the big ring under load, if I have to. Again, perhaps some people can't learn to modulate their power output when shifting and they need motors to ham-fist the chain around. That seems like more of a crutch than an advantage to me.

I'll have some fun with the Di2 and who knows, perhaps I'll grow to really like it; I honestly hope so and it's why I decided to try it. The simplicity of two button shifting is definitely intriguing, as it was when I flirted with a 1x system a while back. However, I'm not under any illusions that it's going to be a life-altering experience and it wouldn't surprise me if I eventually end up with Campy H1 mechanical/hydro. After all, I still have a manual transmission in my car and I'm not about to give that up any time soon, but it does have hydraulic brakes. ;-)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/29/17 9:20 PM

"don't buy the argument that front shifting is substantially improved and my experience hasn't shown that to be the case"

Well, there is no argument as far as I am concerned. My statement when I made it is one of fact from my experience.

I'd make sure the FD stop screw is working correctly and the metal tab it hits is in fact been installed. Or the screw has a solid metal resting place and not poking into your carbon seat tube. Nor allowing the FD to bend in when actuated if it has not been turned in to actually be a stop. It rests [the stop screw] on the riveted on aluminum FD DR braze on the Domane, Thus I skipped the supplied metal adjustment stop piece with the double stick tape on it.

Now the last Campy I had was 9s Record Carbon Ergo. To me other than the thumb sprint dump which I liked, it shifted no better than the Dura Ace 9S. The front to me not better or faster, nor slower or worse, just different, more trim positions not needed I felt for doubles.

And the 10 Speed D/A Better yet.. The 11S Shimano, cabled or not an even greater improvement 3x IMO.

Observational, but I have not experienced a front shift like the Di2 before. Less contingent on higher cadence to be improved. Heck, a 55 RPM front shift happens before you get off the button it seems like. I recall waiting for wrap on both ERGO and STI with cables for that of I dogged a shift.

The cabled 11s Shimano front is very good too, the FD ratio is not linear. The cable pull changes mid swing. The pivot 'pin' the cable wraps around is adjustable as to adjust the ratio change point. In case the cable comes up centered or left/right of center.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

5/30/17 5:04 AM

I didn't say that the front doesn't shift well...

...and it shifts very well (it's set up perfectly, including the support screw which bears on the mount, in my case). What I said was that I can shift mechanical derailleurs just as well, so I don't see what the big deal is. While I can certainly screw up a front shift, I rarely do. Arguably the only performance difference is that electronic systems never screw up. I also suspect that a lot of the hype is just afterglow from Shimano being first to market with (viable) electronic shifting, which was somewhat revolutionary at the time.

As far as mechanical "S" vs. "C", it's more a matter of preference than performance, at least with the 10-speed systems that I've used. Shimano has a very light, fluid feel and requires very little effort, but to me it feels somewhat vague. Campy has much more tactile and audible feedback at the lever, so you know when you've shifted, but requires a bit more effort (they even made an extra-effort version for pros who asked for it). Both designs are intentional and both shift equally well; there's no right or wrong, good or bad here. Although I don't like the pivoting brake lever on Shimano mechanical, there are people who don't like Campy's "mouse ears" too.

FWIW, SRAM mechanical seems to be somewhere in the middle, with the added advantages of simplicity and slightly lighter weight. It does seem to be more susceptible to dirt intrusion when used in cyclocross, but perhaps that's just because I've had more first-hand experience with it in that context. I haven't even seen e-TAP in in-person, so I can't comment other than to say that they took a novel approach to making shifting even simpler, which seems commendable, and that I really like the idea of no cables OR wires.

I haven't used either 11-speed mechanical group, so I can't compare them. Reviews I've read indicate that they both made incremental improvements and continue to refine their systems with each new version. At this point, mechanical shifting is so good, that there's little room for improvement. It seems to me that what's needed is more development effort to create better cables that maintain their performance over their lifetime, as they're the "Achilles heel" of mechanical shifting and braking systems.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/30/17 10:00 AM

How were/are the Campy 11s improvements? 10s for that matter?

As much as I like the shifter cable reroute S did with last version 10s and forward... It sure was short lived as 10s before 11s came out.

Not having a lot of experience with 11s personally, four 'S' 11s setups now two Di2, two 5800. I have to say the special shift cables/housings for the under tape versions raised an eyebrow for me.

Based on reviews of the 1st version shifter cable reroute, my Roubaix 6703 setup got 6603 STIs, and shifted flawlessly. Best triple I have ever used, and no detriment being a triple over a double as every other STI triple I have used.

Although I liked Campy front Triples in the day with extra trim positions. But the 10s Ultegra Triple was so good as to not need extra trim position.

I kind of do not like the plastic feel of the 105 5800 STIs, but they do shift fine.

Also, now that I am used to the Di2 now, with no shifter cabling at all. It has a simplicity and certainly a handlebar cleanliness I do like.

When I get on a STI bike with cables coming out of the shifters it looks oddly busy visually. ;)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

6/10/17 1:56 PM

Shimano strikes again!

Now that I have my charger, I've updated all of the firmware (it seems really weird connecting a bike to a computer). I went to set up Synchro Shift and it pops up a message that if the battery I have is installed it Synchro Shift wont' work. Apparently they have a new battery with Bluetooth and more processing power to handle the extra demands of Synchro Shift (which doesn't seem very complicated). So, it's going to cost me another $120 buck to program this thing the way I want it.

I also learned that they have specifically programmed the firmware to not allow Di2 road and MTB derailleurs to be mixed on the same bike. So if I want to reduce my crankset gearing substantially, I'll have to buy not only a new MTB front derailleur, but an unnecessary new rear derailleur too. What kind of BS is that? They promise you all of this great customization ability, but they always find a way to reach into your wallet when you actually try to use it.

This just reinforces my long-held opinion that Shimano is a really s**t company that doesn't give a damn about it's customers except as cash cows; it's all about the money. Trump would be right at home there. ;-)


Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 6/10/17 6:11 PM; edited 1 time in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/10/17 4:42 PM

I think it is just more storage for the firm/software.

It 'IS' weird plugging it into a PC. Like you should give up your cycling curmudgeon badge...

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greglepore
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 1724
Location: SE Pa, USA

6/11/17 5:07 PM

Easy Brian. They usually have their reasons, ie stuff will work but not optimally for everyone, so they block it. I agree its frustrating, ie the inability to mix 10 and 11 spd parts. The bluetooth battery thing was common knowledge prior to the release of synchro. Its even more annoying for those of us that have had working groups for a while and just want sychro. I only want semi, but I'm not springing for the battery.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/11/17 6:20 PM

Anyone play with the shift speed, I did next to fastest and it did not really seem faster to me...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

6/11/17 6:24 PM

I tried the Fast setting...

...and found it somewhat difficult to predict, so I went back to Normal.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

6/15/17 5:05 AM

Well, it works

I installed the new battery and programmed the system for Synchro shift with both left buttons shifting down and both right buttons shifting up. It works fine in the stand, so all that remains is to see how it works off-road.

Wish me luck!

UPDATE:
I got a brief ride in yesterday before the rain rolled in and it works exactly as I expected. Left side for downshifts, right side for upshifts and I don't have to worry about trying to be precise while bouncing around on rough terrain. Sweet!

A friend is thinking of doing the same thing on his wife's triathlon bike, which is another place where it makes sense.

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