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Friend got a new old bike [Pics fixed]
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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

5/25/17 4:37 PM

Friend got a new old bike [Pics fixed]

One of my office colleagues has gotten into biking and he just recently increased his stable by acquiring a 60's vintage steel Legnano.

Sparky - If I send you photos, can you find some way to post them in this thread? We'd like to plumb the knowledge base here as to the hodgepodge of parts that's on the bike.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6882
Location: Maine

5/25/17 5:00 PM

Ooh! Ooh!

That sounds wicked cool, Legnanos were nice.

And I would be happy to review the componentry (and geometry) with reference to my '57 Bianchi, '65 Cinelli Mod B, '72 Masi GC, '77 Colnago Eddy Merckx Special, and '72 PX-10 (in case there is some French influence).

And I'll bet it rides great. Is it the Legnano (and I assume you know how to say that) green?


Last edited by dan emery on 5/25/17 5:14 PM; edited 2 times in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19063
Location: PDX

5/25/17 5:01 PM

















--
🚲/🎸


Last edited by Sparky on 5/27/17 12:32 AM; edited 2 times in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19063
Location: PDX

5/25/17 10:56 PM

I am trying to figure out what the galvanized band low on the seat tube is by the BB lug...

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6882
Location: Maine

5/26/17 5:34 AM

can't see 'em

The pics don't show on either my iPad or PC, after I've logged in.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19063
Location: PDX

5/26/17 9:00 AM

Well, the pics showed up as usual when I do this. But I think my FTP account there, a free one I have used for 5 years or better all of a sudden seem killed. So my host/post days may be over until I get a new ftp service quite possibly.

I sent a support request, it sez account active but suspended for some reason..

See if we can't resolve this, you will see the pics when I succeed, or not. ;)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19063
Location: PDX

5/27/17 11:23 AM

Pic Links fixed.

Update: non paying 'free' accounts apparently get service tickets ignored.

So after so many years of free service I went ahead and became a paying customer.

So as before, all host and post requests from anyone here can be honored.

My email here if you click on the envelope is set to an old email addy, so just ask out in a thread and I will forward an email addy to send files to post/host to me that way. I do not want to pester ANT to fix the mailto: here. Him keeping us alive is enough.

In fact, I am way overdue for a forum donation here which I am about to remedy.

Let's at least give ANT some sushi money y'all.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6882
Location: Maine

5/27/17 2:55 PM

Supercool

Love it. Galvanized band is a pump peg.

Never heard of the brakes. Campy Valentino is an older derailleur (think midrange but not completely sure). Nervar (cranks) is a French (I believe) company. Similar to Stronglight or TA. Cottered cranks, looks like only a couple teeth difference in the chain rings - that's like my Cinelli.

Looks like a 4 cog freewheel? That's like my Bianchi. Love the wingnut hubs, not sure I've ever seen those. The half chrome fork blades with the big, low bend are like my Cinelli. Chrome lugs were also very common back then, the Cinelli has them too.

No bb cutouts, but my Cinelli and Bianchi don't have them either - maybe they came along later.

My guess is the bike is maybe one step down from the top of the line, but I could be wrong. That is also true of my Cinelli, which is beautiful.

With a good restoration I bet it would be gorgeous.

I'd be interested in a full frame shot to see the geometry. I'm guessing it's a mile long and a super stable ride (like the Cinelli). I'm sure your friend will have fun with it.

Edit: I originally said Nervar made lugs, that was Nervex.


Last edited by dan emery on 5/27/17 6:39 PM; edited 1 time in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19063
Location: PDX

5/27/17 6:38 PM

OK, they seem to have it worked out. I think two techs jumped on the ticket before one closed it...

"Galvanized band is a pump peg. "

Ahhh....

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KerryIrons
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 3234
Location: Midland, MI

5/28/17 5:03 PM

Early 60s


quote:
a 60's vintage steel Legnano.


That bike is either very early 60s or a low end machine. I got my first good bike in 1969 and everything was cotterless cranks by then. The Valentino derailleurs were in display cases in high end bike shops showing "the good old days." By '67 the cottered crank was found mostly on "English racer" three speeds and low end rides. Even the Schwinn Varsity was 5 cogs by the mid-60s.

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Campyman
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 52
Location: Wausau, WI

5/28/17 5:45 PM

Band clamp

Do you mean the Campy Cable guide or the Pump peg?

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6882
Location: Maine

5/29/17 8:40 AM

My eyes deceived me

On closer inspection the freewheel has 5 cogs.

Some internet research (which as we know is infallible) indicates Valentino was introduced in '64 as a "mass market" line, and Balilla made brakes and was somewhat less prominent than Universal and Weinmann. Sort of like Nervar compared to Stronglight and TA.

As to cottered cranks, as I indicated my '65 Cinelli Mod B has one, and while undoubtedly the top line Supercorsa had cotterless, the Mod B is a fine bike and certainly was raced. The Raleigh Gran Prix I bought in '72 had a cottered crank, and obviously that is an entry level bike, but it was a decent 10 speed.

The bottom bracket on the Legnano may be a different make than the crank, my Cinelli has a Stronglight crank and Magistroni bb.

I think the Legnano has a pretty interesting collection of parts.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5094
Location: Nashua, NH

5/29/17 1:45 PM

Interesting yes...

...but it's a low-mid range bike, probably circa 1970. It looks typical of European bikes that were rushed over here early in the "bike boom", before adaptations were made for the US market, such as chainrings with enough difference to make it worth shifting. This bike looks like it has 52/48 rings.

If it was high end, there would be some indication of the tubing used in the frame. Centerpull brakes were rarely used anywhere other than mid-range bikes; the low end typically had junk sidepulls and the high end had good sidepulls (Universal or Campy). The fact that it has a rack on it is another good indication that it was a mainstream model.

It looks like the front derailleur cage is worn through. This was pretty common when owners never bothered to learn to shift their bikes; they just shoved both levers all the way forward and left them there, with the chain rubbing the front derailleur. It's a pretty good bet that the 14t cog is worn out too, as it was probably rarely shifted out of it.

Of course, none of this makes it any less interesting as a conversation piece. People wax poetic about the Schwinn Varsity, too.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19063
Location: PDX

5/29/17 2:07 PM

Shall I post pics of my Kobe, SRAM 2 speed and straight bar so I could feel it to judge how much effort to put into repainting it...

2010 HiTen but forged suntour drop outs. Which seemed unusual to me...

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6882
Location: Maine

5/29/17 2:22 PM

Pre bike boom

I don't think it's a bike boom bike, I'd say mid-60s.

As to the chainring combo, both my '65 Cinelli and '57 Bianchi came with very close chainrings, the Cinelli 51/49 I believe. These are both racing bikes. The Cinelli (which I bought in the '80s) also came with about 5 extra chain rings for different combos. I think that's just how bikes were built then, maybe the front derailleurs couldn't handle much range, I dunno.

As to brakes, both the Cinellli and Bianchi came with Universal centerpulls. I believe the Bianchi was their top of the line machine at the time. Centerpulls in that era are not a sign of inferiority.

The Legnano is not a top line bike. OTOH I don't see many Nervar or Barilla components, and I'll bet the frame in original condition is gorgeous. Interesting is in the eye of the beholder.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5094
Location: Nashua, NH

5/29/17 6:47 PM

I haven't seen Balilla brakes, either...

...but Nervar cranks were not unusual, particularly on French bikes. The close-ratio chainrings weren't common, but I seem to recall seeing 52/45 combinations fairly frequently.

I agree that it was probably a pretty bike when it was new.


Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 6/5/17 4:52 AM; edited 1 time in total

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5094
Location: Nashua, NH

5/29/17 6:49 PM

DP

nm

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

5/29/17 11:51 PM

Close ratio chainrings were pretty common in the 1960s. My first race bike during that period had 52-49 chainrings and a 13-21 5-speed freewheel, and that was a pretty common setup among the local riders where I lived back then (Perth, Western Australia). The rationale for the gearing was that the gear difference between the two chainrings was about half that between the freewheel cogs. Half step plus granny without the granny. Getting up a hill of any size, though, was a bit of a grovel with a low gear around 60 inches.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

5/30/17 12:40 AM

It looks like a fun machine to imagine how it would have been to have a real bike instead of the Schwinns and Columbias most people rode back then.

The BB/chainstays look like they were crimped for the kickstand. Combine that with the chrome, the paint, the Valentino, it's obviously for country cafe enthusiast. It probably has some nice stories to tell. Chrome Lugs

That's a five speed freewheel, isn't it? Considering the vintage, is that another high end component?

I think the rack has to go. This is a safety issue. It's obviously not factory spec (as if that really matters) but more importantly the brakes aren't that great to begin with compared to today's and the rack interferes with the straddle cable. I'd be surprised if the rider could lock up the rear on dry pavement.

Happy trails to your friend.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

5/31/17 9:55 AM

To the OP, this is an interesting find because of the age, the brand and especially since seems to be close to entirely original.
Finding old bikes with the desired vintage style like this one means being very patient, or willing to shell out higher prices, unless it's a lower-tier model like this one (or a rust-bucket, which this one isn't).

I don't do re-paints, so with the above in mind I look for anything with original paint still in good condition. Often these older bikes have very "slack" frame angles, so with the biggest sizes being more "still available" on the market, I'll sometimes settle for one that seems too big but actually fits well on the road because of a relatively short forward reach to the bars. It turns out that these bikes tend to come with only 8cm or 10cm stem length in most cases, so a good fit often results for my long-legged (but only 5'9") proportions.
So this could be a good "rider" bike for the right buyer who might at first think that it is too far on the "big" side, that is if it's limited gearing range will suffice.
It'll need some hours of work, but it's so-so paint condition should help it go un-stolen longer in a more-urban use environment.

Balilla was the main competitor to Universal, the other big Italian brake maker.
The Valentino derailers are very basic and available cheaply, but are reliable, as is the French-made Nervex crank with swaged/welded-on "spider".

Lower tier bikes often will appear much older than they are, since these models often were fitted with parts from older, legacy "cash cow" tooling equipment and assembly lines. I am guessing mid-late-1960's on this one as a late-to-the-discussion Monday morning quarterback.

The cottered bottom bracket may require considerable skill to deal with, that is if it isn't already working properly, in which case I would lube it "externally" by dripping in oil or blasting in some aerosol lithium grease using a tapered applicator tube (heated and stretched, then cut off where it is necked down). The adjustable cup can be adjusted with the crankarms in place if needed. Cotter pins should be alternately hammered in and nuts tightened, repeatedly, until fully seated (once the bottom bracket is checked for proper function that is). The rest should be like putting any other older bike back on the road, perhaps starting with wheel work and coaxing the chainrings into a true plane using a 3# hammer and thick dowel as a drift.

Hopefully the seatpost isn't stuck/frozen in place, as I had to deal with on this late-1950's French Urago (that was built to a similar price-point to this Legnano). It took about 4000lbs pulling and concurrent hammering on the seat tube with a bfh and block of Trex decking material to budge out the surprisingly much-oversized post which had been forced in so many years ago. Ouch!







Last edited by dddd on 5/31/17 10:28 AM; edited 3 times in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19063
Location: PDX

5/31/17 10:03 AM

I can just see thecseat tube getting pulled out of a lug on side or the other long before 4k. :)

Was it around 1k lb per serving of the gold liquid?

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

5/31/17 10:23 AM

..."Was it around 1k lb per serving of the gold liquid?"

Did you mean "gold liquid", or "liquid gold"?

Strangely enough, I can't remember. :-)

The part I absolutely remember was hearing windows around the neighborhood slamming shut at I walloped on the seat tube with the hammer and block. The hammering made for the ugliest resonance you ever heard, and yeah, as the winding torque on the ratchet ever increased, needed something extra to calm the nerves for that, too.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5094
Location: Nashua, NH

5/31/17 11:21 AM

Dealing with cotters

The best way to deal with cotter pins is to use a cotter pin press rather than a hammer. I actually have a press, but absent the ideal tool, it's pretty easy to modify a large C-clamp to do the job (that's basically what a cotter pin press is). You just need to grind some clearance for the pin on the fixed side of the clamp. If you must hammer, at least use one with a brass or copper face so you don't flare the end of the pin. If you have to replace a pin, replace both to make certain that they have identical angles. Otherwise, you may find that the crankarms are slightly out of phase.

That said, I agree with dddd that if you don't need to overhaul the BB, don't mess with it. Getting old, stuck cotters out of a crank can be an immense chore, one which is best avoided.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

5/31/17 7:03 PM

I've expanded my vintage-bike horizons over the last 5-6 years to include three cottered-bb bikes, as thresholds to be crossed in terms of meeting the challenge of keeping up on training rides using older bikes. Other thresholds included 1-piece cranks (Schwinn and Huffy) and using only 4- and 5-speed freewheels.

I use a home-modified, cheap MC chain breaker for removal tasks, sometimes augmented with heat-cycling while the remover is in it's "tensioned" state on the cotter.
For re-installing the pins, the pin-pusher device is not the best way (for me, at home), since mine is made merely of cast "iron" and so is brittle.
Instead, I tighten the cotter's nut, and like I said I alternate this with medium taps of a hammer to the blunt end of the installed cotter. The pulling action from the nut actually reduces the OD of the cotter according to poisson's ratio of elasticity, while the hammer blows overcome static friction along the cotter's length. The point of being fully-settled is easy to discern when the nut stops wanting to turn easily.
The tool I use is strong enough to bend even a 7mm-equivalent Whitworth-threaded cotter stud, so it's pushing power isn't limited during pin removal , only when pushing the blunt end in upon reassembly could it use more oomph without risk of the tool breaking.
I paid about $8 for the basic tool before modding, and the modifications are numerous, so took about an hour. It fits every crankset I've used it on so far:




This bike is one much like the OP's posted Legnano, i.e. old, European, cheaper road bike (mine's a little cheaper yet). It features the dual challenges of cottered cranks and only a five-speed (13-24t) freewheel, mated to a wide-range crankset to give a quite-decent range for spirited foothills riding. It's also one of the "huge" bikes that actually fit me well, due to quite-relaxed frame angles, 71-degrees or so (which pulls several centimeters out of it's forward "reach" dimension).
It's relaxed headtube angle is mitigated (in terms of steering response) by the heavily-raked "low-trail" fork, which was a popular 1950's way of making older/ancient frame geometries more sporting, for use with drop bars. And, aside from it's relative or even gross(!) inability to allow close drafting without touching wheels, it can/does haul the mail when in tt-mode through varying road environs.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

5/31/17 9:09 PM

Any thoughts on the rear brake made less effective by the rack?

I dig the Clubman. I had a brown one with cotterless cranks in lean times years ago, not a shabby ride at all. The paint was metal flake like the blue, with pinstripes. I don't recall pinstriped lugs though. With toe clips it kept up just fine, as you know.

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