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Quick question regarding snow tires
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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

1/16/17 7:33 PM

TMS

I don't know if the OBD computer keeps track of the TPMS readings or not and if their absence would be noted or recorded.

I do know that Pennsylvania's annual auto inspection law does not care if the TPMS system is working or not and it's absence or failure will not disqualify the car from passing.

My daughter's Civic, bought used, has a TPMS system that never worked from the day she got it. The dealer promised to fix it but she has not bothered to take the car back. Nevertheless, the car has passed inspection each year with no problem.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 7:47 PM

What I thought was a simple purchase of 4 winter tires turned into a one-day crash course on all the idiosyncrasy of tires/rims/tpms. But at the end of the day, it led to a handy conclusion.

Turns out, the cost of mounting a run-flat tire including a tpms is much higher than just mounting non-run-flats. Tally up the cost of mounting the run-flat tires twice a year, buying rims actually comes out ahead pretty quickly.

Past experience also led me to favor buying dedicated rims for the winteries. I've had trouble with tpms not working right when new tires were mounted. So the thought of having that done twice a year means the large potential I'll need to deal with improperly setup tpms.

Whilst with dedicated rims, it's only about bolting the wheels on. Much fewer things to go wrong!

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

1/16/17 7:56 PM

I have run flats on one of my cars. I assume that, if a tire pressure monitor goes bad, the system will tell you, i.e., the default setting is the sensor is bad. And, yes, I had a tire lose pressure and you can feel the difference, even if there wasn't an annoying blinking light telling you that you lost pressure in a tire.

If you have AWD, all season tires should be fine for the few times you drive in bad snow conditions.

If you decide to get a set of snow tires, go ahead and get a set of rims. I did that for a couple of cars through TireRack.com and was very happy with them. I swap the wheels myself twice a year. They even set them up with the necessary tire pressure sensors if needed.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 8:12 PM


quote:
If you have AWD, all season tires should be fine for the few times you drive in bad snow conditions.

It's more than a few times now. The weather pattern has changed that we get snow
"down here" more and more often. Add in the trips I take up north, the number of times I drive on adverse condition has increased... there's also another circumstance that increases the wintery driving, which I won't go into on a public forum (this is the only forum I'm using my real name)

Those were motivations. Also, I don't see too much negatives. Because through the life of a car, I'm likely to go through more than one set of tires. So it's just a matter of buying that 2nd set now vs buying it 60,000 miles later when the original set of all-season wears out. With the rotation of summer/winter tires, I won't be needing new tires till it's closer to 100,000mi.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

1/16/17 8:51 PM

Winter tires are much better steering and stopping, and I consider them essential where I live. We have steep hills here, and being able to slow and stop on downhills is the problem.

Yes we can go with AWD or 4 wd, but I see a lot of those in the ditch due to the lack of true winter tires

April , I said I don't have run flats so I can see a flat tire on my vehicle.

I think winter tires are only good winter tires to 50% of tread, and they wear faster than summer tires, so they are good for 10,000-15,000 miles in my experience. You can then leave them on after the last winter and wear them out the following summer.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 9:14 PM

Dan, all I'm saying is I can't leave the tpms non-functional. Or I'll have a true flat, with no spare to get out of the jam.

So all the comment about the merit of tpms (or the lack of) are irrelevant. I could very well ignore them. But I thought some of you might be interested to KNOW what its real function is when paired with run-flats.

And the comment of WHETHER to have snow tire or not, it is a foregone conclusion. I've already made that decision before I post the question. In fact, had I not run into all the extra options, no one here would have gotten wind I had plan to get some winteries.

Having said all that, on any forum, unsolicited advice is a given and I have no problem with them being offered freely. In some rare situation, it may even change a decision. Though in this case, I haven't seen any argument that I haven't already considered. So I'm staying my course.

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

1/16/17 11:53 PM

I would recommend checking any BMW (which I think you own) owners forums for recommendations for particular tires others like for your vehicle.

I found some General Altimax all seasons highly recommended on the Forester forum, put them on a year ago on 2 cars, have been very happy with them.

Tire suitability is very vehicle specific, but I agree with dfcas that winter tires on a 2 wheel drive car can be as effective or better then all seasons on AWD. Winter tires on AWD makes you wonder why you never did it before. I read this all the time, but with rims it's expensive.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

1/17/17 6:26 AM

I've been using dedicated snows on steel wheels...

...on every vehicle for the past 40 years. Here's what I'd recommend:

Go down to 16" wheels or even 15" if they will fit around the brakes (that's the limiting factor). Ideally, you want a tire with an aspect ratio of 65-70 (or higher), if possible.

Steel wheels are all that you need. I bought my last set from an outfit in Canada for ~$240 shipped. I'll dig up the name if you like.

Decrease the wheel width by an inch and the tire width as well to 215 or 205. Narrower tires bite through snow to the pavement beneath, rather than riding on top of it.

Get Nokian tires. I've tried a few brands and they are the best. Price-wise, there's not that much difference and it doesn't make sense to skimp. In addition to improved traction, they handle well and are quiet compared to others. I'm running the Hakka' 2s currently. I've heard good things about Bridgestone Blizzaks, but I haven't used them. Steer clear of the bargain brands; the point here is safety, so it doesn't make sense to compromise that to save a few dollars.

TPMS sensors are a waste of money in my opinion. A $5 pressure gauge is all you need and you should be checking the pressure periodically anyway. Dealers cannot legally install new wheels and tires without sensors on a car that's TPMS equipped, but they can sell you a set of tires mounted on wheels without sensors. Once you own them, they can swap them for you if you prefer not to do it yourself.

FWIW, I haven't found the TPMS system in my car to be reliable enough to trust. It's affected by EMI/RFI and my system doesn't reset itself automatically. I refuse to pay a dealer $75 to reset the system whenever it loses it's mind. Considering that I can't even remember the last time I had a flat on a car, I don't see the point. Before I'd deal with the cost and hassles of TPMS, I'd just but a compact spare at a junkyard and throw it in the trunk for the winter. They don't take up that much space and you can store it with the snows when you change wheels in the spring.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

1/17/17 8:45 AM

TPMS


quote:
You mean you decided against purchasing any model of cars that don't have spares or space for spares.


truthful hyperbole? No, like this


quote:
My daughter's Civic, bought used, has a TPMS system that never worked from the day she got it.


TPMS contain a battery in the sensor that will eventually die with age.

TireRack offers TPMS at a really good price, even less $ at amazon, but TireRack will provide a list of businesses that will install them for you, including detailing their labor cost upfront.[/url]

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

1/17/17 8:57 AM

The point is that, with run-flat tires, you absolutely need functioning TPMS. After a tire loses pressure, you can only drive on run flats for 50 miles or so. You may not check the tire pressure or notice the flat in time without TPMS.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/17/17 9:55 AM

Thanks Brian, for your offer to dig up the information for good cheap steel rims. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to take advantage of that. I need to get the whole thing done by the weekend before I hit the road to parts of the country where snow and ice will be the norm. So, I'll just have to eat the extra cost. But I appreciate the offer nonetheless. BTW, Bridgestone Blizzak is the tire I'm getting.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

1/17/17 11:25 AM

You're welcome April. Have fun on your trip.

If anyone else needs steel wheels, the company is "onlywheelsonline" and I found them on Ebay. There was a question about whether the wheel size I wanted would fit my car. These guys were great to deal with and answered my questions quickly. Shipping was fast and the products are good quality, as best I can tell.

PLee, with run-flat tire, surely you must be able to feel the difference in handling between when they have air in them and when they don't, correct? Given that, what are the odds that you would not notice it and drive more than 50 miles with them flat? Also, I would bet that the 50 mile number is for a worst-case situation, like a 100 degree day at highway speeds, as opposed to a 30 degree day on back roads at lower speed. I'm presuming that the issue with driving on them when flat is that the tires will eventually overheat and start coming apart.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

1/17/17 11:52 AM

To PLee's point - once the puncture (low of pressure) is detected by the TPMS, you have about 50 miles of driving before the tire BECOMES flat. That is, the run flat tire's sidewall is reinforced and will last about 50 miles before it collapses. That is how run flat tires work.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/17/17 12:06 PM


quote:
I'm presuming that the issue with driving on them when flat is that the tires will eventually overheat and start coming apart.

You actually destroy the tires at that point. And stranded on the side of road somewhere.

But with TPMS, you are alerted of the puncture. So with that 50 mile grace window, you have options to fix the cause of it and save the tire (and resume your journey without fanfare).

I had that happened to me once. Parked at a dirt lot, drove out and the tire light came on. Stopped to check the pressure and found it completely empty. (on a traditional tire, I would have seen the tires being flat before I drive out of the parking lot!) Pulled into the next garage, removed nail, and continued on. Then when I got home, I got an invitation to go skiing early the next day. Had it not for the TPMS, I would have missed the window to fixed the puncture in time to join the ski trip. Or worse, got stranded on the road side on my way to the mountain.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

1/18/17 6:11 AM

That settles it...

...I will never buy a car with run-flat tires. Like many "innovations", it seems like they create more problems than they solve. A cheap compact spare seems like a much better solution that doesn't require unreliable electronics to support it.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

1/18/17 7:45 AM

I may be the biggest redneck alive. Not only will I not buy run flat tires, I won't buy a vehicle with low profile tires.

I got my vehicle inspected the other day and the tire shop told me they average 10 cars a day coming in with blown tires, bent control arms, and bent wheels, mostly low profile tires. Our roads are really bad.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

1/18/17 10:05 AM

"I may be the biggest redneck alive. Not only will I not buy run flat tires, I won't buy a vehicle with low profile tires. "

I am no redneck, and I am with you 110%. So that is not the determining component. ;)

The '15' CRV has Steel rims and even higher profile tire than the Equinox. This is a plus to me.

"unreliable electronics to support it."

Yeah, because electronics are globally unreliable. ;)

I also consider the tire wear deferential factor with most AWD systems a detriment, at least financially. But this is one I will tolerate for the safety factor. In previous winters the AWD was a safety net not realized/needed, this year is 'ice city' and adjusting with a vengeance.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

1/18/17 10:25 AM

The consideration with run flats is whether the piece of mind is worth it to you versus driving on slightly heavier, less compliant, slightly louder road buzz tires.


Piece of mind meaning: 1) less likely to experience a blowout and 2) less stress & danger of replacing a tire along a highway shoulder, when one can simply drive right on in to the next tire shop to have the tire replaced.

It is akin to the bicycle thread I started about the non-pneumatic bicycle tires being profiled. Like run flats, sure they will not appeal to most, but such bicycle tires will serve some well, like fat tire riding commuters.


Electronics is not a consideration. TPMS is preferable to not having the device present in the rim. If your car is TPMS ready, you might as well take advantage of using TPMS for any type of car tire (really it is the rim).

One of the reasons TPMS was mandated was to improve fuel economy and lower emissions. Too many folks driving with under inflated tires. That mandate, plus another somewhat recent government nudge, to mandate detergent additive for all gas sold helps with that objective.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/18/17 1:00 PM


quote:
A cheap compact spare seems like a much better solution

Audi provides a compact spare AND run-flat tires on their A-series. I consider that a best of both world. (but for reason of overall price, I didn't buy an Audi). I think Infinite also has that same setup: run-flat AND spare.

The benefit of run-flat with a working TPMS, JS had already enumerated. Having driven the car into a garage with nail in the tire TWICE in the past 5 years, I'm a convert.

But run-flat WITHOUT a working TPMS is not a run-flat but a "delay flat". Because you can't tell if the tire is already air-less, it's only a matter of time that it will collapse, at equally inconvenient location.

Still, I'd like to have a spare, for situations when I'm further away from garage than the run-flat can handle. My biggest worry is, as a white water paddler, I occasionally travel to fairly remote put-in over rough terrain. If I puncture a tire half way there, I basically have to abandon the trip and turn around. Whilst with a spare, I could continue on. Part of my thinking with the snow tires is, I could throw one of them in the trunk as a full size spare for such a trip. Sure, it takes up a lot of room. But cars are getting bigger and bigger. My current car is quite a bit bigger than the one before. So I should be able to cramp all my paddling and camping gear in there even with a full size spare.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

1/19/17 6:11 AM

That's sensible

The idea that any car would come without a spare tire seems blatantly stupid to me. Full-size is definitely preferable to compact. If you have to use a snow tire in the summer, keep in mind that they are not designed to handle high temperatures and wear rapidly when used in summer conditions. That shouldn't be an issue for a spare.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

1/19/17 6:14 AM


quote:
My daughter's Civic, bought used, has a TPMS system that never worked from the day she got it.



quote:
TPMS contain a battery in the sensor that will eventually die with age.

You missed the point. What I was saying was a functioning TRMS is not required to pass PA's annual inspection requirements.

Also, my daughter's car was only two years old when she bought it used and the TPMS wasn't working properly then. The one in my CRV is still fine after over 4 years so it shouldn't have been a battery problem.

BTW, we rented an Audi A3 in Scotland last September and the TPMS warning light came on when we were miles from anywhere on the Isle of Skye. Talk about panic! I did a visual inspection and none of the tires looked low and, having no choice, kept driving. The car continued to handle fine. I stopped at a petrol station near our hotel. re-inflated all four tires as a precaution and found the way to turn off the warning light via the car's touch screen program. Everything was fine for three more days until it came on again and again, none of the tires was low. It had to have been a defective sensor and the guy at the Hertz rental agency told me they have been trouble.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/19/17 6:26 AM


quote:

The idea that any car would come without a spare tire seems blatantly stupid to me.

I am told, by more than one sales person, the reason for the lack of spare is to do with gas mileage number across all the cars by the same manufacturer. By omitting the spare, the cars are lighter, therefore has slightly better gas mileage.

Also, with all-wheel-drive, a compact spare had the potential to damage the transmission if driven for long-distance. So it's either a full size spare, or no spare.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

1/19/17 8:58 AM


quote:
You missed the point. What I was saying was a functioning TRMS is not required to pass PA's annual inspection requirements.


No, the point was about the used Honda's TPMS not working. I made the assumption used = old when writing; you did not indicate the age of the car. Go ahead and reread the posts.

To be preemptive about the next post - I did not miss your confirmation bias attributing your experience of and dislike of TPMS. That was very clear.

If the Honda is only 2 years old and the TPMS did not work - that should be a really big read flag when buying a USED car. I would be concerned how well the previous owner maintained the car.

For starters isn't the car under warranty? I'm too lazy to look up - but typically most cars come with 3ys/36k. At a minimum, if you purchased the car from a no--absolutely-nothing-about-cars owner - surely tjhat owner would have driven the car to the dealership to have the car checked out and the TPMS issue addressed.

Second, if you look inside the car manual, it will describe how to reset/recalibrate the TPMS. It will likely also indicate what will trip up a TPMS monitoring system and how to correct the setting.

Last, the TPMS batteries should last more 4 years. You can search to confirm, if you so choose.

If you learn (more) about TPMS, and its benefits, it just might sway your decision in the other direction. Just might....

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

1/19/17 9:26 AM

Omitting a spare tire also frees up quite a bit of room in the car. For my clean diesel, the ammonia additive is stored in the space where the spare tire would have been carried.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

1/19/17 7:04 PM


quote:
I did not miss your confirmation bias attributing your experience of and dislike of TPMS. That was very clear.......

I really don't have any particular dislike of TPMS and, in fact, mine alerted me to a low tire on my CRV before it was very apparent visually or while driving and it wasn't a false alarm. I like them just fine. However, they are a bit glitchy as my experience in Scotland demonstrated.

My point about my daughter's car was specifically, and only, that PA doesn't consider them essential to pass their annual inspection. That's all I meant and it wasn't a condemnation of the concept. And yes, the dealer did offer to fix it at no cost, she just hasn't bothered to follow up.

Don't read too much negative into what I wrote.

Last edited by Dave B on 1/20/17 8:26 AM; edited 1 time in total

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