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Quick question regarding snow tires
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 9:58 AM

Quick question regarding snow tires

I'm considering getting winter tires for my car. The car is only 1 year old. This is almost its first winter. (last winter was so mild it almost didn't register) I have a tendency to keep all my cars for 5+ years (some up to 10 years). In talking with the garage, the shop guy is recommending that I get a set of wheels with it.

His rational is the cost of mounting and re-balancing twice every year will add up. So the end cost may actually be lower if I get a pair of cheap rims to go with the winter tires. That seems to make sense economically, more so if I go as cheap as I can on the rim, which is what the guy suggest.

The second recommendation from the shop guy is to go with steel rim. His reason is it's easier to bang it back to shape if I dent it on potholes. That begs the question of why cars comes with alloy wheels in the first place? Just looks? Put another way, what am I giving up by getting the cheaper rims?

The last recommendation from the shop guy is to get a rim that's one size smaller than OEM. Reason being there will be more tires and less likely to...again, dent the rim. Now, I think that would impact the handling adversely, wouldn't it?

I guess it's questions rather than just a single question. Never realize there's much to think about with winter tires.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

1/16/17 10:10 AM

Do you have a place to store them ? Steel rims are cheaper, more dent resistant, and easier to repair. If you have low profile tires, going down a size allows you to have more tire between the rim and the road. Low profile tires are stupid on our beat up roads, and if you can get the same outer diameter you will get a better ride and gain damage resistance. On paper it should not handle as well but in real life it makes no difference.

Sounds like your tire guy knows what hes doing so trust him. I agree with everything he said.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

1/16/17 10:15 AM

If you slide out trash a steel rim instead of an alloy rim, cheaper. That is what folks do here and we are having a real winter here this winter. Plus your swap overs are easier. Also eliminate the odd chance a tire tech will tear up a bead in process of all the extra mountings. Wheels and tires take up same room as just the tires when off the car I suppose.

More tire on smaller dia rim sure seems prudent for lessening potential trauma as well.

What about studs? Or are you leaning just soft highly siped variety?

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 10:32 AM

"Do you have a place to store them ? "

Not sure about that. But that's the same problem with tires only isn't it?

I'll just have to find a place for them. I can probably re-arrange the garage to free up some space. (actually, where the kayak is right now, I could probably just put the tires on the ground and the kayak on top of them. Let's see, the kayak is 22" wide, the tires 225/50R17 works out to be just around 22-23"!)

On the rim size. I went for the "standard" wheel size this time around because I suffered through 4 years of "sport rim" the last time around. It's a 17" rim on a regular sedan. Down a size would means going for a 16" rim. Is there such a thing as "too much of a good thing"? (granted, that would had been the size the same car came with a few years back, all the cars "supersize" up everything! Why?)

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 10:38 AM

"What about studs? "

When I look online (tirerack), there's no studded version for my car. Not sure I need/want them.

(please bear with me, this is my first foray into the winter tire land. I didn't used to ski as much as I do now. So all the extra driving in wintery condition is pushing me towards that direction. And it makes more sense to do it on a new'ish car that I plan to keep for many years)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

1/16/17 11:00 AM

Some tire shops have storing services, ask I guess.

Is your car AWD? Both the Equinox and the CRV we have now are, and we are driving on rutted solid ice of late. No problems with the original tires. And the Michelins on the Equinox have 28k of wear.

I tool the CRV to the store yesterday. The spot the car sit was so bad, polished over lumpy rutted ice.
I had to hold the car and take baby steps just to stay on my feet until I got to the lane. The CRV with original tires went in and out without a slip of traction event at all. I was impressed. The equinox will push/plow when the wheels are cut on solid ice. I suspect the rear is grabbing better in that circumstance.

I drove 4WD pickups for 20 years, and these AWD eat them for lunch.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

1/16/17 11:05 AM

I should mention this on snow tires. The 2WD pickup I had in the late 90s with snows [no studs] and some extra weight in the bed was unstoppable.

I was working Mountain Services at Mountain Creek [old Vernon Valley] and 60 times a year minimum I drove up and back in a few bad winters in NJ. Grip is good.

The Dodge did have a Limited Slip rear, and 400 lbs of sand in the bed. But for a 2WD pickup VS all the 4WD I had previously, I had zero traction problems in all conditions.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 11:10 AM

Yes, it's AWD.

The motivation for winter tires is the theoretical "extra traction". Conventional wisdom is winter tires "improve" on whatever all-season rubber they came with.

The downside is relatively little. Over the life of the car, I will likely go through at least one set of original tires anyway. So it's just paying for the 2nd set now rather than a few years later when the original tires needs replacement. With only 6-8 months use, the original will last longer, probably by the amount the snow tires is used?

In the mean time, I get to drive on a set of tires that are theoretically more suitable for ice/snow in the snow country.

if I have to sell the car early for any reason, I lose. That potential is small.

BTW, these are run-flat tires. (no room for spare in the trunk). Does that change any of the argument?

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4391
Location: metro-motown-area

1/16/17 11:19 AM

i do this

buy a cheap set of rims and snows from tirerack.com, the mounted/balanced prices are great on cheapie rims. then swap them out for the winter driving season. here in MI, i roll them from mid-dec thru early march.

just get snows, no need for studs unless you're in seriously icy and deep conditions. winter snows are more than good enough for 99% of snowy situations. the extra traction is not theoretical, it is real -- winters use rubber compounds that stay softer in cold temps and the tread is cut with oodles more edges to grip on snow and ice. good winter tires can turn a RWD porsche 911 into a solid daily driver in the snowbelt.

the gold standard are Nokian Hakkapeliittas, but they are expensive. most all of the known brands make good winters.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

1/16/17 11:32 AM

"BTW, these are run-flat tires. (no room for spare in the trunk). Does that change any of the argument?"

Even more reason to go smaller rim so there is more tire/sidewall to lower trauma likelihood perhaps. But a screw or nail is a puncture potentially.

It does present a potential problem though... Is keeping a few cans of flat fix in the boot sufficient additional protection is another question.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

1/16/17 11:56 AM

Done it both ways.

Doesn't really matter, what matters is getting good snow tires.

I think the best is dedicated wheels one size smaller, but putting snows on your existing rims may work fine depending on the rim. Pay upfront for wheels or as you go along for changing tires on your wheels, your choice.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

1/16/17 12:05 PM

Aspect Ratio?

What is the aspect ratio of your current tires? i.e a 215/70 tire has an aspect ratio (sidewall height/Tread width) of 70%. If your current tires are less than 60-series, by all means got to a smaller rim and a larger aspect ratio to get enough side wall height to protect the rims.

Another benefit of having a complete second rim and tire set is the ease of getting the snow tires on your car before the first heavy snow. Any gas station or anyone who can change a flat tire can swap out the snow tires if they are already on wheels. If you have to have the summer tires removed and new tires installed on the same rims, that takes special equipment and you can be sure tire dealers will be waaay backed up when a storm is forecast.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 12:49 PM

OK, good recommendation notwithstanding, there's no inventory on the smaller diameter winter tires! At least not on tirerack.com The only option is the same size as my current rim. And there aren't that many choices on the tires either.

Also, because this being run-flat, there's the extra cost of the tire pressure monitor if I were to go with a dedicated set of rims. The economics is getting muddier.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

1/16/17 2:33 PM

"because this being run-flat, there's the extra cost of the tire pressure monitor"

Not because of run flat, IIRC all US sold/use cars have this by law as of, I forget when... mid 2000s??

And yeah, it is a cost factor. Although if you sell your own cars when you get a new car, the entire extra seasonal tires may put your sale near or at the top of used buyers queue??

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

1/16/17 2:54 PM

My state does not require the TPMS to be working, that is its OK if the light is on, so I didn't buy them for the winter tires.

My light is on all the time anyway because I run them a few PSI below suggested pressure. My summer tires ride like a Cannondale at 35PSI.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

1/16/17 3:02 PM

Question is will the data kept in the computer be read at the dealer and void drive train warranty etc?

This could be a lot more expensive in the long run I suppose.

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

1/16/17 3:22 PM

Check with whatever tire shop will be doing the work as to whether state law requires them to install pressure monitors. I have read this on the Subaru Outback forum and if the case, it can add about $300 ($75 ea.) to the shebang.

I priced Michelin X-Ice snows on dedicated rims, $650 for the tires (installed), about $80 for a rim, so $320, plus TPMS @ $75 approx. ( was what I was quoted), so $300, for $1300 total or so, plus the cost of the mount, balance, etc... twice per year.

To me and if I was driving in snow every week for the entire winter, I'd invest in them. Otherwise it's a pricey option.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

1/16/17 3:29 PM

I've been able to buy used rims thru my local classified ads newspaper or Craigslist on several occasions. I have pedestrian vehicles but I paid $75 for 4 the last 2 times I bought winter steel rims. Of course theres the risk of getting a bent one.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 3:36 PM

Tire pressure monitor

If the tire pressure monitor is not working, how do you tell if you got a tire that's empty of air?

Like, when you got a nail in the tire (happened to me last year, the TPS was working so I knew right away and got it fixed the next morning).

Unlike traditional tires, a run-flat tire that's leaking air doesn't look any different than a normal tire

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

1/16/17 5:03 PM

"how do you tell if you got a tire that's empty of air? "

I think the better question is how do you tell when it is 10lb or more shy, on the way to flat. Where the danger zone is, or starts to be...

We survived for decades without these systems.

But I can say this. It has been a long time since a low tire situation, me almost loosing it from that greasy traction situation, that being what alerted me to said low tire has occurred.

And usually that tire is already damaged at that point experience has showed me. I assume the run flat tires don't exhibit this, at least to the damage or greasy traction level??

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

1/16/17 5:16 PM

I don,t have run flat tires, so I can see readily if a tire is flat. We drove for 100 years without tpms and I look at my tires as I walk up to the vehicle.

I don't like the idea of electronics inside tires anyway and I can tell by the vehicle handling that a tire is low.

Like I said, I have no experience with run flats.

I had a 2014 Honda CR-V that used the abs system to detect a low tire, with a reset on the dash. That was a lot better idea than battery operated radio transmitters inside the tires.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

1/16/17 6:11 PM

You cannot easily tell when there is a puncture in a run flat tire by looking at it.

The secret sauce with run flats is a reinforced sidewall that will hold up/remain erect for approx 50 - 75 miles after a flat.

They are heavier than regular radials. If you care about ride quality (yes- you do; see non pneumatic bike tire thread) run flat snow tires will be will practically like driving a jeep on sand.

Some shops offer to store your tires. I don't know any in our area off hand; most common in New England states. The one downside to this is - if they go out of business - you are likely out of luck getting your tires back.

I don't use snow tires because my reasoning is that I'm more fearful of other ass-hat drivers not throwing caution in the wind then me with my driving and car handling. Most folks just have a very poor sense of risk assessment. That is for the few days a year (2-3) there is considerable snow, I'll gladly pass on driving even if you offer me a Sherman tank to drive.

For snow like this past weekend in NY/NJ - snow but no stick/no accumulation, all season tires handle just fine.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 6:43 PM

So it seems most aren't familiar with run-flats. So I'm going to disregard the comments related to it, except:


quote:
I don,t have run flat tires, so I can see readily if a tire is flat. We drove for 100 years without tpms and I look at my tires as I walk up to the vehicle.

You can't "look at the tire" because a run flat is not "flat" even when there's no air!!!

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

1/16/17 7:14 PM

run flats

I started a thread about this roughly 8 months ago, here. After subsequently researching it a bit, I decided against purchasing run flat tires.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

1/16/17 7:19 PM

decided against "purchasing run flat tires"

You mean you decided against purchasing any model of cars that don't have spares or space for spares.

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