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60 Minutes Sunday
 

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

1/28/17 4:19 PM

60 Minutes Sunday

The promo says they will have a story on mechanical doping in cycling.

Hmm, my new bike is built to Cancellara's spec....

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

1/28/17 4:56 PM

Probably the usual "60 Minutes" reporting; rumor, innuendo, unverified accusations, misinterpretation, sensationalism, etc.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

1/28/17 4:56 PM

That's where the 300 grams are. Maybe 300 watts too.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

1/30/17 6:12 AM

I read an article about this before the show

I think it was in Velonews. Anyway, they pointed out that the "motor maker" is a shameless self-promoter with a criminal record, who provides no evidence for any of his claims. While the footage of attacks that 60 Minutes shows looks dramatic and potentially damning to the general public, it's perfectly in keeping with the nature of the sport and the abilities of the athletes involved.

The fact that a motor could be put in an old Trek frame doesn't mean that one ever was. I really question whether Sky's bikes weighed exactly the "800 grams more" that the motor drive system allegedly would add. AFAIK, TT bikes are typically over the UCI weight limit due to disk/deep wheels and other aero aids. Additionally, Pinarellos have been some of the heaviest bikes in the pro peloton until just recently.

It's also interesting that 60 Minutes didn't even mention any of the testing that the UCI is and has been doing to detect motors, essentially making it look like nobody is doing anything.

Overall, this was just another shoddy, one-sided, 60 Minutes hatchet job designed to support a predetermined supposition of guilt. This is piss-poor "journalism" at best; they saw the chance to take a cheap shot at a sport that is struggling to overcome problems in the past and jumped at the opportunity to kick it while it's down. While I'm not a fan of the UCI and feel somewhat ambivalent about Team Sky, they deserve fair treatment. At least 60 Minutes didn't mention Cancellara by name, but that's probably only because they would have gotten their sorry a$$es sued if they had.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

1/30/17 6:34 AM

Right

They had nuthin' but rehashed baloney. 60 Minutes used to have integrity but now is a joke.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

1/30/17 7:46 AM

Nothing New


quote:
60 Minutes used to have integrity but now is a joke.

Any semblance of their integrity was lost years ago when they did the "Audi Unintentional Acceleration" story. A poorly researched hatchet job that made accusations but never looked into their cause or possible explanation.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

1/30/17 10:16 AM

60 Minutes integrity

When they rehired Lara Logan after Benghazi "reporting" that was the final straw for me; Dan Rather's ms word/bush letter scandal was a mulligan.

I'll admit though I still was 60 minutes from time to time, just not hold it to a higher standard like I used to.

He may be right again, but Lemond does come off a whiney - or more specifically his lack of emotional intelligence is a bit grating given his stature in the sport.

For instance, "LeMond said not enough is being done by the International Cycling Union to prevent cheating with motors." How would he know? I doubt the UCI would spill the beans in detail about how they enforce the sport's rules, much like law enforcement in general keeps some details covert to help with their investigations & enforcement.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

1/30/17 12:14 PM


quote:
I really question whether Sky's bikes weighed exactly the "800 grams more" that the motor drive system allegedly would add. AFAIK, TT bikes are typically over the UCI weight limit due to disk/deep wheels and other aero aids


Except that it was noted that the **only** team with bikes over the weight was Team Sky. IIRC, it's been a decade or so since teams could easily build bikes well below the UCI weight limit. That is, there would always be care given to make sure the bikes meet the minimum weight.


quote:
It's also interesting that 60 Minutes didn't even mention any of the testing that the UCI is and has been doing to detect motors, essentially making it look like nobody is doing anything.

Overall, this was just another shoddy, one-sided, 60 Minutes hatchet job designed to support a predetermined supposition of guilt.

This is piss-poor "journalism" at best; they saw the chance to take a cheap shot at a sport that is struggling...



They cover such in the "overtime" video. They spent 9 months researching the topic. I do not think it is a hack piece nor incriminating - just a healthy level of ___skepticism___, IMHO.

overtime link..
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-hidden-magnets-the-next-big-cheat-in-cycling/


BTW, 60 Minutes was kind not to mention Team Sky's Bradley Wiggins use of banned PEDs. Yes, off topic. However, while the ***World Anti-Doping Agency*** knew of his use (!), it took Russian hackers to make such information public. It reminds me of another performer-regulator collusion/conspiracy...LA.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

1/30/17 2:21 PM

To me, LeMond's mention of a "lotta money" implies enough money to get the regulating agency paid off. I doubt that if there was a legitimate effort to keep motors out of the peloton that any refusal to remove wheels for weighing would be allowed, rather that the bikes would be impounded on the spot for further investigation.
So the whole story seems to lack enough detail of events that went down for the viewer to make a reasoned conclusion.

And I guess that with this "motor guy" so willing to spill the beans on Dr. Ferrari, on himself and on his customers, it means only that 60 Minutes paid him enough money to essentially say what they wanted him to say. So I don't think he's believable. I mean if he's telling us all this, but not saying what brand of bikes he delivered to the secret locker, we have an ongoing drama for CBS to keep playing, which CBS values highly.

One thing about news stories with witnesses talking in heavy foreign accents is that the listener is more prone to fill in linguistic gaps using their own imagination, which weakens their ability to sniff out bs. Marketers use this very same tactic as when touting baseless technical merit of their products.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

1/30/17 4:25 PM

It's all about implication and innuendo...

...combined with uninformed opinion (from Lemond). Hard evidence doesn't matter. Come to think of it, it's all rather "Trumpian". Looking back, one could certainly argue that actually 60 Minutes is the originator of "post truth". ;-)

It's somewhat amusing that the most credible person in the segment was Tyler Hamilton. All he had to do was ride the bike and provide some "expert" perspective about the performance of the motor system. No, I don't mean to imply that he's an expert on bike motors.

I guess that thanks to Trump's immigration directives, Remington must have gotten a brief reprieve on what was bound to be another hatchet-job (on the Model 700 rifle). We all know how 60 Minutes feels about guns.

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

1/31/17 9:28 AM

"Hard evidence doesn't matter."

It does matter, but it is difficult to come by for obvious reasons. For instance, David Walsh did not have a smoking gun to implicate Lance Armstrong. Overtime, there was enough connecting-the-dots momentum for humpty dumpty to eventually tumble.

Notably, 60 minutes is just piggy backing off of the work of several other media outlets in France. Surely, there is much more press about mechanical doping of cyclists in Europe.

In the overtime clip, they showed how one detects the motors using a heat temperature gun. Even better, if the UCI really wanted to crack down on mechanical doping they could use x-ray machine like done at airports and courts.
It's a _really_ simple solution - much more so than to detect bilogical/pharma cheating.

I think the really reason they don't is a combination of ignorance-is-bliss naivety and the obvious unflattering image of not so discretely screening bikes before and after the start.

Where's the press release from the UCI that they are addressing or even acknowledging the (potential) for mechanical doping? Silence is golden $$$ isn't it?


Somehow, NASCAR figured it out many years ago. I recall Sports Illustrated documenting the many ways to mechanically cheat and how NASCAR cracked down on such. It's no longer a hot topic, because NASCAR addressed the issue.

Back to the 60 minutes video, at the same tour that Team Sky was suspected of mechanical doping, B. Wiggens ended up getting busted for PED use.

Again, that *fact* cannot be overlooked. Another fact is that cheating in sport has occurred for centuries, even documented accounts of it in the very first Olympics.

One has to be very naive, with all the money in sport, that cheating still does not occur, despite sports organizations "best" effort to weed it out. I use "best" in quotes, in jest, because one can certainly question the probity of the UCI and WADA after they suppressed PED usage of Lance Armstrong and Bradley Wiggins.

Maybe you are tired of all the doping press, understandably, but for many it is hard to turn a blind eye. Notably, all of this does not detract much from my enjoyment of watching pro cycling.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

2/2/17 12:10 AM

Bobke

This jumps to the CBS story segment.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

2/2/17 5:34 AM

The news article made no mention of the IR cameras being used to inspect the bikes, the tear downs or other inspections and the fact that none beyond the Xcross chick being caught.

Tyler Hamilton was their pro who tested a bike with it. He said the power was subtle but HUGE in feeling.

The seller, sounding like a drug dealer. Yeah, I sell them but I don't ask what happens to them after I sell them.

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henoch
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 1690

2/2/17 7:55 AM

Facts?

Where's the press release from the UCI that they are addressing or even acknowledging the (potential) for mechanical doping? Silence is golden $$$ isn't it?

Ahhh, Jesus Saves, perhaps you missed this article below and many more like it
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/132-motorised-doping-checks-at-tour-down-under-fdj-celebrate-20th-anniversary-news-shorts/

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

2/2/17 8:52 AM

Touchy PR issue

I think the PR problem is that even a whiff of this issue reduces the sport to a laughingstock in most people's minds. Mention the issue to a non-cyclist and they laugh. Not sure widespread testing is reassuring. Like giving Olympic runners body scans to see if they have motors crammed up their butts.

I don't know if it's a significant issue in the peloton or not, though I tend to doubt it, and I don't know what the best response is, but kind of hard to unring the bell once the word is out.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

2/2/17 9:22 AM

"motors crammed up their butts."

Or just the batteries. Which brings new meaning to 'burning roids' in samsung s7 context...

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

2/2/17 3:30 PM

henoch - yeah, I did miss it. I dunno how... given that the press coverage is for another continent. Of more immediate relevance, as far as the 60 minutes report - NADA. No comment from the UCI. Maybe it is because Aussies speak better French than Americas...

I think Dan Emery is on to something. Very plausible. However, NASCAR makes no quibbles with doing such checks and its sport is not suffering as a result. I do not know what the correct calculus is.

Thread drift here...isn't WADA (and perhaps the UCI) suppressing PED drug testing failure by the sports' top cyclist (circa 2015) even more alarming and repugnant?!?

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

2/8/17 2:19 PM

Bruyneel attacks LeMond and motor claims, VeloNews

http://www.velonews.com/2017/02/news/bruyneel-attacks-lemond-motor-claims_430341

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

2/16/17 5:42 AM

I don't believe the tech was there when LA was racing. He just juiced like the rest of the bunch.

I think there may have been some isolated raced where they have been used in the past. The spinning wheel video from the crash a few years ago was very suspicious. I wish I could remember the details of the event.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

2/16/17 10:12 AM

"Last year, Armstrong denied ever using a motorized bike during his carer. “In 1999, no one even knew you could put motor [in a bike],” he said."


Or we'd surely have been utilizing them?? ;)

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: NorCal

2/16/17 12:28 PM

LOL!

I think that without the improvements in lithium batteries over the last 15+ years, that a motor-assist with enough power/range-to-weight ratio would have been much less of an actual advantage, though with a willingness to pack a frame with batteries or to use multiple battery-pack hand-ups (inside of water bottles), a valid case could be made for a huge advantage being realized.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

2/16/17 12:52 PM

Phil asking Paul "I don't get it, since when did domestiques start taking bottles back to the team car?"

Paul: "But what really flummoxes me is whenever they drop one they stop to pick it up."

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

2/16/17 2:25 PM

""But what really flummoxes me is whenever they drop one they stop to pick it up."

Lots of possibilities here:

Don't want anyone seeing what the magic 'juice' is.

Or; anyone spiking a bottle with a banned substance and giving in to the officials as a set up.

Or; precipitate a testing of things not tested for due to traces.

No way a bottle/battery would get pitched unless by accident.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

2/16/17 3:54 PM

This audience is way too serious.

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