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Road 700x30 tubeless
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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2218
Location: Canberra, Australia

9/23/16 2:42 AM

Road 700x30 tubeless

I'm using some DT Swiss R23 wheels on my Lynskey Sportive that are tubeless compatible, so when I exhausted my existing supply of Schwalbe Ultremo ZX 700x28 tyres, I purchased some Schwalbe S-One tubeless in 700x30 (the Lynskey has plenty of clearance for these).

So far I'm pretty pleased with them - they measure a real 30mm wide on the R23 rims, don't seem to roll out any slower than the Ultremo ZX in spite of the extra size and weight, and with the rear at 60psi and the front at 50psi, which seems about right for my weight, they certainly smooth out the buzz and bumps from the generally crap roads around here while still handling well. Getting them onto the rims wasn't a complete bear, and I managed to get the front tyre beads to pop into place using just my track pump.

No such luck seating the beads on the rear, so I visited my LBS and purchased an Airshot - it looks like a small fire extinguisher with a presta valve on top and a hose with a tap on it that attaches to the tyre valve. Close the tap, attach your track pump to the presta valve and put ~150psi in the Airshot, crack open the tap and the beads snap into place with a nice satisfying set of cracks.

The instructions that came with the tyre said to use 30ml of (Schwalbe Doc Blue, which I think is just rebadged Stans) sealant. I used 50ml of Orange Seal, on the basis that I don't care about 20g more weight but the increased amount of sealant should last almost twice as long before drying out and needing replenishment.



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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5565
Location: Maine

9/23/16 9:08 AM

Cool

Look like great tires. A friend has Schwalbe tubeless and loves them, though I think his are 25s. I use Schwalbe One tubed. I thought of converting this year but didn't get around to it (I have Campy Zonda rims that supposedly accommodate both).

The Airshot looks cool.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 15030
Location: Portland, OR

9/23/16 10:43 AM

I have not gone [tubeless wise] beyond the Hutchinson Atoms, then Fusions when the rear Atom got pretty worn [rear never flatted FWIW.] Also, picked up a four puncture double staple front flat [which sealed], thus I ordered the Fusions to replace. 23-622 on both sets.

I have to admit the weights of the bigger tubeless have caused me pause, not to mention the prices. I seem to chicken out at about $55.00 tire max.

But considering the 23s ride like 28s...

Looking at these new 30s Nick got @ 325 grams, I like what I am seeing. Keep us posted on how they wear.

As a side note, my Vittoria Paves wore much faster than I am prepared to keep buying them.

Another side note: I am just tickled pink with the 28mm GP4K, which too big for all my bikes except the Disc Strong. Sit out to 31.8mm on the sl25 Pacenti rims.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5565
Location: Maine

9/23/16 12:36 PM

Dumb question on tubeless

I got a pinch flat on BikeMaine last week when I creamed a small (but deep) pothole that was in the shadows on a downhill. I take it that tubeless should totally eliminate this type of flat (no tube to pinch), short of blowing out a sidewall of course?

Any thoughts on whether a new tubeless rim is going to be significantly better than a convertible from ~4 years ago? My friend has wheels made by Stan's I believe which he likes.

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henoch
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 1410

9/23/16 12:50 PM

As long as you have sufficient sealant in there then yes it should eliminate those types of flats.
I think that a tubeless ready rim will be easier to work with then a converted one but they should work just the same, also age isn't that much of a factor as I have a set of Ultegra 6700 Tubeless wheels which I think are 4 years old.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 5883
Location: Westchester/NYC

9/23/16 1:14 PM

tubeless tires

Last time a "bike guru" gave us a talk at our club about "new" equipment, I asked about tubeless tires. His answer was, it's next to impossible to re-seat the tire without compress air, making roadside repair pretty hopeless. But he's talking road tires. I know mtn bike tubeless tires ARE mountable without compress air. Where does cross tire fits?

That begs another question. Since pinch flat will be non-happening, what other kind of flats will a tubeless tire "possibly" have? I'd like to hear some first hand experience.

Nails/glass/debris: With sealant, will that be eliminated too?

Sidewall cut?

What else?

The bottom line, those of you who're already riding tubeless now, have you EVER had a flat on a ride? What happened and how did you deal with it?

(I'm not going to be converting any existing wheels to tubeless. But I'm pretty sure my next bike will have disc brake, which means new wheels. I COULD go tubeless. So I'd like to think about the pro's and con's. As of now, I have only seen flats once every few years. So the tubeless will need to be almost perfectly flat-free to have any advantage at all. And if that low flat probability comes with impossible repair, the advantage goes right out the window)

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5565
Location: Maine

9/23/16 2:32 PM

Pinch flats

I was thinking you wouldn't even get a pinch flat as there is no tube to pinch, and I don't think you'd snakebite the whole tire.

If the sealant works, I guess I'd see a sidewall cut as what would require remounting? And you wouldn't do that roadside anyway unless you carry a spare tire. But I've never used them.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2218
Location: Canberra, Australia

9/23/16 2:46 PM


quote:
I seem to chicken out at about $55.00 tire max.
I got these for about $US40/tyre from bike24.com. Wiggle and ChainReaction had them for about $US50/tyre.


quote:
I am just tickled pink with the 28mm GP4K, which too big for all my bikes except the Disc Strong. Sit out to 31.8mm on the sl25 Pacenti rims.
Surprised they run that big, as my wife has them on her BH, and mounted on Dura-Ace C24 wheels (which admittedly is a pretty narrow rim), they're about 26.5mm wide.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 15030
Location: Portland, OR

9/23/16 3:11 PM

"they're about 26.5mm wide."

Sure they aren't 25mm GP4000s, or are they the colored ones maybe? My 25C black Chili G4KS on a 23mm wide rim are 27.4mm. The 23 GP4K on the 23mm rims air up to 25mm +/- 1-2mm depending on pressures.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 15030
Location: Portland, OR

9/23/16 3:21 PM

"The bottom line, those of you who're already riding tubeless now, have you EVER had a flat on a ride? What happened and how did you deal with it? "

As I said above, 4 simultaneous punctures. Two T50 staples in a piece of plastic, all four points went in the front. Pulled out the plastic and rotated the hole to the bottom and it sealed. That was the Atom Hutch, lighter tire than the Fusion that has replaced it. I rode home being I was only 3-4 miles from home. I pumped it up and it had lost air to 45lb when it stopped leaking when I got the holes down to the bottom. It felt like it was low, but not that low.

The sidewall are way stiffer and I'd say will take a lot more to slice up. It felt like it had 70lb or so in it.

If you do get a cut on the road that requires a boot etc. I think you are in for a mess, and a sealant bath on you and the bike probably. And you better have Irons and some rags, a tube, boot etc.

But the chance of that kind of flat is pretty low IMO. And it might make a light casing tire like a GP4K toast and non boot-able sooner. Bath aside.

My sense is that maybe a slice/shard type cut is going to be less likely to seal than the square staples unless I am imagining that.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2218
Location: Canberra, Australia

9/24/16 2:25 AM


quote:
Sure they aren't 25mm GP4000s, or are they the colored ones maybe? My 25C black Chili G4KS on a 23mm wide rim are 27.4mm. The 23 GP4K on the 23mm rims air up to 25mm +/- 1-2mm depending on pressures.
They're definitely GP4K 28mm. I've been buying them for quite a number of years and they've always been undersized. On my bikes I run them at 80 rear / 65 front, on my wife's bikes a bit less:



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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 3485
Location: Nashua, NH

9/24/16 9:00 AM

Sealant quantities, sidewall cuts, etc.

When it comes to sealant, I've adopted the position that "less is more". From what I've seen, running the recommended amount of sealant (or more) just increases the likelihood of "marbles" or "oysters" forming in your tires, without any significant advantage in sealing punctures. Additionally, it just makes a bigger mess in the case of a large puncture/cut that the sealant can't handle. The only purpose I can see for the typical recommended amounts is to increase the amount of sealant the manufacturer sells.

I typically run 1/3 - 1/2 the recommended amount. Yes, I have to add sealant twice per year, but with a removable valve core (I won't buy tubes or tubeless valves without them) and a syringe, it's a quick and painless process. To date, I haven't had any issues with punctures not sealing as long as there was some liquid still in the tube. I've only had one tube develop a latex lump in it and no issues at all with tubeless tires. A quart of sealant lasts me a long, time, too.

When it comes to sidewall cuts, you're in the same predicament whether your tire is tubeless or not; you still need a boot and a tube. The only difference is the sealant in the tubeless tire, which should be wiped out before installing a tube, but it's not critical for just riding home and it will rinse off of the tube afterward. I keep my spare tube in a old cotton sock, which serves as a rag if need be.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 5883
Location: Westchester/NYC

9/24/16 9:26 PM


quote:
I keep my spare tube in a old cotton sock

I should try that.

I keep mine in a zip lock bag (or Fedex bag). But since I don't have flats for years, I have to change out the bag if I see sign it being damaged by the other items in the saddlebag.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 15030
Location: Portland, OR

9/25/16 1:45 PM

I should have used a Capitol 'S'. I did not mean the plural of 4K. 28mm All seasons are smaller than the 25mm 4KS Chilis. As I said, my 25s 4K'S' are almost 28mm on 23mm wide rims. The 25mm Michelin casing is even bigger. I have last run 25mm Axial Pros that fill out to 29mm on 23mm wide rims.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2218
Location: Canberra, Australia

9/26/16 1:54 AM


quote:
That begs another question. Since pinch flat will be non-happening, what other kind of flats will a tubeless tire "possibly" have? I'd like to hear some first hand experience.

I was out on a bunch ride yesterday. We were hammering along a freeway shoulder when I felt a thump and then the swish-swish-swish noise from the rear once each wheel revolution that means escaping air. The swishing noise stopped after 10-15 seconds, but I could still feel a slight thumping each wheel rev.

We finally pulled off the freeway about 10km further on, and regrouped, so I took the opportunity to inspect the tyre. There was a small screw embedded in the tread, with some dried sealant visible around it, so the sealant had obviously done its job in sealing the puncture, and pinching the tyre between thumb and forefinger, it still felt up to pressure. I decided to leave the screw in place until I got home, which was about another 15km, and the tyre stayed up for the rest of the ride.

When I got home I pulled out the screw, and more sealant and air started escaping. Spinning the wheel and then pushing on the spot where the screw had been sealed the puncture, though the pressure loss in the tyre was now noticeable. I pumped the tyre back up to pressure and took it for a short spin up the road and back, which didn't show anything untoward. The tyre was still up to pressure the next morning...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 3485
Location: Nashua, NH

9/26/16 7:05 AM

That sounds pretty typical

The most common flats I used to have before using sealant were pieces of wire from steel-belted car tires. It was these annoying flats in tubulars that convinced me to start using sealant in road tires. It saved a lot of swearing and gluing.

Thorns can be a real issue in some areas, though around here they're more of an off-road problem.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 15030
Location: Portland, OR

9/26/16 11:32 AM

My last tubular ride [before selling 3 sets of wheels off] was a chunk of glass. Like a side car glass tempered small piece/bead/meteor.

It tried to seal, but when I aired up @ about 70 lbs it would push the drying plug of sealant out. I waited longer a few times to air up, but the hole was just too big @ about 5mm and the goo-poo ensued. I just popped on the spare and tossed a brand new tire in a dumpster. In retrospect, tire pressure was too high, and I should have rode around that glass meteor. ;)

The 4 smaller staple hole flat in the tubeless Hutchinson sealed well and pretty fast. Especially as I was near stopped making a turn across on coming traffic and could quickly stop and spin the holes to the bottom after pulling the chuck of plastic with the two staples. But it still went from 90 to 45 quick. But seal it did.

I think @ road pressures being so may bars above atmo, the system is less effective than at low off road tubless pressures. But stopping to allow it to seal and just pumping up to desired pressure is sure faster than doing a flat change, right? ;)

I want to order some of these 30mm Schwalbes as soon as I read/see/hear what kind of wear folks are experiencing. If like my Paves, I will most likely pass. Unless I get them for 40.00 range, which I am not seeing browsing.

Still a 'pick your poison' decision I think.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2218
Location: Canberra, Australia

9/26/16 4:37 PM


quote:
I want to order some of these 30mm Schwalbes as soon as I read/see/hear what kind of wear folks are experiencing. If like my Paves, I will most likely pass. Unless I get them for 40.00 range, which I am not seeing browsing.


36 Euros from bike24.com, which according to xe.com is about $US40.50:

https://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=143208;menu=1000,4,22,35

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 15030
Location: Portland, OR

9/26/16 5:33 PM

It looked like 44.00 each from them. but 25.00 shipping to me scared me off. What did it cost to ship to OZ?

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2218
Location: Canberra, Australia

9/27/16 3:28 PM

About the same shipping cost, but I bought four tyres plus a couple of other components from them, so the shipping cost per item wasn't much.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 3485
Location: Nashua, NH

9/28/16 6:35 PM

Shipping costs

I'm not sure about Bike24, but we just ordered some 'cross tubulars for Linda from Ribble and I learned something about shipping from the UK. If we ordered 1-3 tires, the shipping was a flat $18 via British Post. If we ordered 4 tires, the size of the box required shipping via DHL and the price jumped to over $60. Ultimately, we bought 3 tires, but if we had needed more, it would have been considerably cheaper to place two small orders than one large one.

Live and learn.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2218
Location: Canberra, Australia

9/29/16 2:21 AM

Most of my overseas web orders come from Wiggle, Chain Reaction, or ProBikeKit, and they all offer free shipping for orders over a certain value (usually somewhere around $AU100). This even applies for large items such as bike frames and wheels.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 3485
Location: Nashua, NH

9/29/16 5:29 AM

This was a trade-off

The tires were a closeout at a ridiculously low price, WAY below anything I found elsewhere, so the shipping wasn't a significant issue in this case. But yes, I avail myself of free shipping from the other vendors you listed whenever possible.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2218
Location: Canberra, Australia

2/4/17 12:41 AM

Someone asked about the wear characteristics of the S-Ones. I've now ridden about 2500km on them, mostly on chip-seal bitumen but with a few kilometres of unsealed road here and there as it crops up on rides. No problems so far, other than a screw in the tyre on one ride, the puncture caused was fixed by the sealant after a few seconds.

The tyres have eventually grown to 31mm wide on the DT R23 rims, and I eventually settled on using 45psi front and 70psi rear as being best under my weight of ~65kg.

Some pictures showing the wear. Left to right: unused tyre inflated on a rim, the front after 2500km, the rear after 2500km. Even the rear looks like there's a few thousand km of wear left, as I haven't yet even completely worn off the little dots in the tread, which aren't very deep at all.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3033
Location: NorCal

2/7/17 6:52 PM

I'm prepared to believe exactly what anyone says about the size of their Continental tires.
This brand used to run a little small as I measured them on Open Pro's, a 25mm was 24mm wide and a 28mm was 26mm wide.

Recently I came across a pair of "23mm" GP4000S tire that measured all of 26mm wide on a racer's narrow old Williams super-lightweight wheelset. I even checked to see if the molded inscription matched the printed labeling, and it did. Perhaps a prolonged very high inflation pressure had caused this I thought, though it was under 100psi when I measured them.

Many years ago I came across a 23mm Michelin SCHD folding tire that had grown quite measurably in width and smaller in height over time, this as compared to a new one and without even the older tire's centerline having yet worn off. There has to be something about the fabric cord angles and binding rubber between plies which causes this sort of progressive distortion, also the SCHD tires had an interwoven outer layer that was visible at the sidewalls. It's not like a radial tire where the shape is simply determined by the tire casing's radial-oriented tension caused by pressure, which can have only one shape due to the tension being constant along each cord's length. In a bike tire each cord's ends are inches apart along the two edges of the rim's circumference, and are bonded to the other ply's cords which cross them at the bias angle. So over time, these cords follow more of their own path in response to pressure as the constraint of the elastomeric bonds within the casing slowly yields.

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