8/21/15 12:49 AM

I don't think this will catch on at all. Electronic shifting works well and is much more adaptable.

8/21/15 6:03 AM

You can run a hydraulic line pretty much anywhere that you can run a wire and potentially in places where you can't run a cable. Hydraulics can make any shaped turn with the right fittings.

I agree that this will not become mainstream, but this is a high-end group. If it lives up to the promise, it will find a market. I think it will be perfect for 'cross/gravel bikes and eventually MTBs.

8/21/15 8:58 AM

Yeah, but..how well will the hydraulics work at high altitude? Alpe D'Huez is treeless at the top for a reason...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20840508

8/21/15 11:30 AM

"I agree that this will not become mainstream"

Somehow I think it actually possible you may have to eat those words, anything being possible and all.... ;)

8/22/15 5:30 AM

What I was getting at was that you're not going to see hydraulic shifting on low-end bikes, due to the cost and the fact that setting them up is even farther beyond the skills of your average DIYer or Walmart stock boy than cables are.

One other potential benefit of hydraulics is in integration. Lines or passages could be molded into frames, forks and other components. Unlike the electronic cables currently in use, a hydraulic line or passage is brand/model agnostic and could work with any number of manufacturer's components.

8/25/15 9:40 AM

See.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/shimano-r785-road-hydraulic-disc-caliper-failure-45088/

8/25/15 9:49 AM

...is fairly undeireable. very fortunate that he didnt have a really bad outcome. interested to see what comes of this if anything.

OMG the hydro levers are MASSIVE!

8/25/15 9:55 AM

Fluid leaks on hydraulic brakes are not unheard of.
Fluid boiling is another concern.

On road bikes, you might be much harder on the brakes than on a MTB.
Think of a long descent with lots of switchbacks. I've done lots of those. You quickly accelerate up to 40-50 mph. Brake hard. Go round and hammer out of the hairpin and onto the next one.

Mechanical disc brakes would avoid the piston leaking problem.

8/25/15 10:02 AM

quote:

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Fluid leaks on hydraulic brakes are not unheard of.
Fluid boiling is another concern.

---

8/25/15 10:49 AM

annnnndddd I was saying?

8/25/15 11:23 AM

Sandi, at my size/weight, I hit pretty high speeds pretty fast just from gravity and girth. So the point is accentuated for us fatties...

8/25/15 12:12 PM

Seems that (just as with the design of frames/forks using different materials), brake design details such as fluid type really aren't important to the end user, except perhaps in any needed replacement interval or deleterious effect on paint.

What it comes down to then is the manufacturer's enforcement of sufficient testing standards and quality control to follow up on their innovative designs.

Testing really needs to be extensive and wide-ranging to account for possible varying workshop practices as well as operating conditions, ageing and so on.

Certainly any disc brake system should "take the heat" so that one's tires, air and carbon rims don't have to.

Not that I am all-embracing of the wholesale redesign of bicycle components interchangeability standards, which I like the way they are and for the most part have been, wishing the press-fit bb nightmare never happened, etc.

[/i]

8/25/15 5:28 PM

...that the rotors turned blue and were smoking, with no loss of braking ability. Incidentally, this happened on a road descent from a trail in Point Reyes, CA.

I'm convinced that disk brake technology is generally solid and reliable. I've had no functional problems with the three disk-equipped bikes I own. I did have one pad contamination incident caused by my own laziness when bleeding a brake after trimming the line. Lesson learned and it won't happen again.

Linda did have a an issue with a Shimano XT lever and a pair of XTR calipers that had seal problems. Of course, not only were parts not available, but the lever was rather difficult to disassemble. That experience just verified everything I hate about Shimano equipment, though to their credit, they did replace the calipers after a lot of badgering from me. We replaced the brakes with Formulas that have been problem free. She now has the Shimano calipers on her fat bike, mated to a different pair of levers. We'll see how they hold up in the lower-speed, less abusive fat bike environment.

8/25/15 7:53 PM

quote:

---

Sandi, at my size/weight, I hit pretty high speeds pretty fast just from gravity and girth. So the point is accentuated for us fatties...

---

8/25/15 8:23 PM

I am not allowed to tell you our tandem weight mounted...

8/25/15 10:59 PM

"...That experience just verified everything I hate about Shimano equipment,..."


Whenever I hear of experiences that form such feelings, I have to wonder how much added design effort, inventory and tech-education that would be needed if Shimano took a more service-friendly approach to product support.
Might be that the components would end up costing quite a bit more, to support a more-extensive service side of things, and the rebuilt assemblies would never uphold product reliability standards as well as new assemblies would.
Campag's shifters appear more service-friendly by their basic design, but as well are more fragile when a brake lever hits pavement and breaks lever pivot ears off the body instead of pivoting out of the way. The Record lever body costs over $100 by itself, so where is the compelling practicality of rebuilding it?

While Shimano did not invent the bushingless chain design, I have to credit Shimano with developing what I consider the first thoroughly modern derailer chain with their original "UG Narrow" model, the design of which has been accurately copied by everyone by now. And their invention of Hyperglide cogs, which enabled the safe application of all of today's race-level integrated shifters by allowing safe shifting while maintaining power output to the cranks. Of course their first hyperglide chain was simply a strengthened version of that revolutionary UG Narrow chain that they had developed just a year or two earlier. And they made all this stuff affordable, and even made it tough enough for mtb service!

Comparatively, I've had problem's with Campag's threadless freehub axle cones which have been available --nowhere-- for at least the last ten years, forcing me to retire otherwise perfectly good, expensive wheels.
And don't get me started with all the fun one can have getting their Campagnolo chains riveted when a chain replacement comes due.
Then there's the Campagnolo cranksets of recent years, where the bottom bracket bearings were so conveniently made part of the cranks instead of easily-replaced-at home (and inexpensive) cups, not to mention their compact crank's bolt circle deviation that doesn't allow fitment of any other brand's small chainrings.

So I don't know why the company that makes such great, affordable and much-lauded products as their latest XT disc brakes should be held to impossibly high standards of home-serviceability. I'm trying to look at the big picture here, this coming from someone (me) who orders thermal fuses for, and repairs, things like cheap waffle irons, rice cookers and hair driers. When Shimano sells an STI shifter unit only as a whole assembly of some sort, I can fully understand why, and it seems fairly practical even from this tough consumer's perspective.
All this from someone who for the most part prefers the simplicity and short-cabled rubustidy of downtube shifters, and who still prefers old thumb shifters, re-spaced freehubs and centerpull calipers for actual racing.

Last edited by dddd on 8/26/15 1:11 AM; edited 2 times in total

8/25/15 11:07 PM

OK, now tell me how you feel about Apple Products. Now that you made perfect sense with you Shimano/Campy. ;)

I won't even say why I use one or the other on way too many bikes here. I don't give a shiet if anyone else does or doesn't, or does or doesn't like what I use. It is all tools to me, the campy fanboying escapes me. Although I made the mistake of putting ERGOs on my kids bike. ;) It is really all a coke and pepsi thing ultimately. ;o

8/25/15 11:21 PM

NO experience with Apple's products here, but I have actually enjoyed the opportunity to rebuild my and fellow rider's Ergolevers.

But it's the same enjoyment I might get from "saving" a gummed Shimano STI lever that some LBS had told their customer needed to be replaced. In a couple of instances where that happened, it was merely the exacting cable tensioning and limit-screw adjustment required of Shimano's Double/Triple Compatible STI levers, again after the customer was basically told to have them replaced immediately, that they were "going bad".

I do wish Campagnolo continued success, especially since greater sales tends to improve parts availability and lower prices. I especially like their style, and find that their equipment performs quite well and gives a long service life.
And some things like their unique bolt patterns are in part just an attempt to assure compatibility in terms of performance and reliability, not just in terms of "fit".
It's perhaps enough "like Shimano" to make you wonder(?).

8/25/15 11:31 PM

I have only 'not' been able to resurrect one STI out of many levers, let's say 1/2 a dozen right levers. That may not be 'many' to some opinions. And that one came off a roof rack at 65 MPH while on the bike. The left worked still even though not pretty. ;) The overall damage was actually unbelievably minor considering. ;O

8/26/15 1:17 AM

You make a good point! The low-mileage Chorus gruppo on this bike had basically the same thing happen, and I couldn't save anything but the bottom bracket and left crankarm.

8/26/15 6:47 AM

...it was about Shimano's crappy "everything is disposible, if a small part breaks, buy a whole new one" attitude. While Campy gear is generally repairable, finding some parts is difficult and as with every brand, eventually the supply of parts for older items dries up. The "gold standard" for repairable gear (at least for full gruppos) is SRAM. You can get pretty much any small part needed to repair their products and the prices are pretty reasonable.

While no parts system is perfect, Shimano doesn't even try, which to me is unacceptable. I prefer to support brands that at least make a good effort to support me.

8/26/15 10:28 AM

"Shimano doesn't even try, which to me is unacceptable."

Which to me is moot, as I have never in decades of Shimano use had any component fail personally. My cited example above was free parts left to me for installing all new ones.

I have had friends have C and S stuff fail. And frankly been appalled at what they had to pay a LBS to repair their ERGO considering the actual cost of a g spring. For those that can do their own work at the level of shifter repair, my point dwindles of course.

Not to mention I grab extra parts when I see them cheap. Di2 STI for 59.00 or the STI R700 shifters sitting out in the garage in a box I which paid a little over 100.00 for...

Been looking for a deal on my son's next bike parts, if someone can point me to some Chorus ERGOs for a little over 100.00, heck Centaur/Dayton NOS parts for non retail... yada

The point and argument is superfluous really... At least I have found it so.

8/26/15 1:24 PM

A quick scan didn't find the word "brake" but "absolutely flawless" and "45 man-years...of testing" appeared.

8/26/15 8:02 PM

So now, we'll perhaps having to be updating our security suite on a regular basis, and what about getting those updates after the "new product promotion" level of rate-of-sales-increase tapers off? Would the rider then be at the mercy...

"...This meant recruiting experts in the field, including computer scientists, programmers and even hackers to ensure its security. Unlike other wireless protocols, Airea is a private system – it’s proprietary to SRAM, so no tech information is outside of the company..."

So it's "trust us". Where is any guarantee in that? How long does this product's security strategy remain robust after more than enough time enough has passed for a model year's profits to have peaked, for employees to have jumped ship and for hackers to have perhaps collaborated?
Would keeping the security suite current for longer than some non-disclosed period of time benefit a company's bottom line? What can we expect and count on in this regard?
And would problems that surface for users in the later stages of the "obsolete" product's life register any more than a blip in the cycling press? Would anyone even be able to demonstrate where such a problem might actually lie? Might it turn out to be a case of "Accountability, are you kidding?"

I'm of course thinking that this is NOT going on my bike, even if/when I might consider a wired system.
Just a week after being introduced to the first new possibly-hydraulic shifting strategy, I am liking Rotor's system much better.
I've seen how very strict rules have been put in place banning various electronic systems from use in specific sports competitions, and I think that this would have been a good point to say "enough already".

But I forgot, the market rules.

8/29/15 8:22 AM

Yes on all your points dddd, and underscore the proprietary issue.

But in context, this is shifting not medical information (more on that.) Limited range, less than bluetooth but of course one well placed "spectator" in the last 800m of a 14% climb can reach out electronically. They don't even need to be human.

Medical data, watts, heart rate, are fair game to the hacker. But for the return, what of the level of effort to decrypt an individual's datastream and affect their shifting in context of touring? low level amateur racing? commuting? And unlike a well placed confederate on a race course, receiving a data stream needs to keep pace even if the range equals bluetooth. These are dynamic electronic devices, not scrambled movie DVDs. So your sworn enemy technician drafting you is the only one with the prerequisite factors to record and invest in a brute force attack (humor.)

Of course your concern didn't concentrate on the cutting edge, high stakes niche, but the legacy context. It is unclear what software instability needs to be addressed in 20 year old equipment (in 2037) if spare parts are even available. My 1990 Polar HRM still works even with a 2012 Timex chest strap - thank goodness. And when I raced I don't recall ever getting crosstalk (not to say it was impossible.)

I guess more than anything is that products these days are more reliable because of design and testing. There's too much competition for some part that relies on design inspiration to get to market before it's well honed. And that's good for the end consumer.