8/19/15 9:19 AM

interesting. to me, assuming it works well, i'd go down the hydro path instead of e-shifting...NO BATTERIES!!!

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/08/news/rotor-takes-on-the-drivetrain-market-with-hydraulic-group_381812

8/19/15 9:57 AM

What's the benefit? Mechanical shifting doesn't need batteries either.

8/19/15 10:10 AM

perhaps hydro-shifting wouldnt deteriorate over time (as much) since there's no cable to wear or housing to get contaminated. perhaps there's some weight reduction. perhaps it will allow more tortuous or low-profile "cable" routing but without any degradation in shifting performance as with cables. and i like innovation or at least experimentation. we'll have to see how good and sorted it ends up. certainly an interesting project!

but i agree -- cable does the trick. for the time being, i'm all about cable-actuation for both shifting and braking.

for e-shifting, if i were to ever go that way, i'd wait for wireless. if you're gonna use electrons, why constrain yourself to copper wire and drill all sorts of holes in your frame?!

Last edited by walter on 8/19/15 11:50 AM; edited 1 time in total

8/19/15 11:01 AM

Nah, I'm waiting for the return of shimano Airlines
http://bikemagic.com/bike-components/groupsets/shimano-airlines.html#opwO2ifx5Uy7yWKE.97

8/19/15 11:30 AM

This was recorded 19 years to the day before the Airlines article.



I thought it would've been published, say, the first day of the second quarter, pick any year.

;o)

8/19/15 2:06 PM

Today's bike's with electric shifters are only now starting to have their wiring sufficiently out of sight to justify their presence on a very high-end bike.
So I'm still waiting.

Reportedly SRAM has been at work on a wireless system. They have resources, and can make it happen. There will still be a need though to have electric power somehow delivered to both derailers, unless each were to carry it's own rechargeable battery (so much for "sleek" derailers).

The Rotor derailer looks relatively fragile and prototypy to me, but it's hydraulic actuation could possibly effect a reduction in cabling's hysteresis losses of accuracy, especially (as walter said) due to age/service-related contamination.

A normal/contemporary "run" of cable/housings/guides loses accuracy as a function of the cable's many local sites of friction, each multiplied by the up-stream length/elasticity of cable/housing up to the shifter .
Calculated as an integral (I'm not going to try this) or "sum" of all sites of friction along the cable/housing's entire length gives a value that correlates to the cable's loss of accuracy in transmitting motion to the derailer and known as hysteresis losses.

The Rotor system will have it's own finite level of hysteresis inaccuracy, due to the sum total of elasticity in entire the hydraulic line multiplied by the seal and pivot friction out at the derailer, but might be far less subject to degradation as the length of sealed hydraulic line should not be subject to the familiar sort of contamination that afflicts today's cable routings.

So, as the industry further refines it's wire routings, it's disc brakes, it's electronics suites, it's tubeless tires, carbon rims and wheel-retention standards, what could possibly be the next big refinement to afflict out pocketbooks after making us want to sell our soon-to-be-old bikes?
Do I smell On-Star and airbags in the air?

8/19/15 2:55 PM

I'd sign up for hub-less wheels. Think maglev bullet trains.

Or telepathic shifting.

Or in the not so distant future - micro-motorized pedaling, like what Fabian Cancellera allegedly used in Paris-Roubaix. ;-)

8/19/15 2:59 PM

"Do I smell On-Star and airbags in the air?"


With the requisite yearly $189.00 fee....

8/19/15 3:33 PM

Fortunately I'm so old I don't have to worry about the next big refinement. I was chatting with a friend yesterday and he looked at my treasured Dromarti shoes, and said "those look like a pair of 1917 shoes." They are my favorites and I will use them at D2R2 instead of my Sidi Dominators (which are also excellent).

All the bikes I ride regularly are steel.

A couple of people have told me "if you try electronic shifting, you'll never go back." However I feel no need to leave mechanical shifting, obviating any question of "going back." Actually I love the Peraillleur front der on my rando bike, which is hand operated, eliminating any need for annoying cables.

The only component on any of my bikes that I truly hate is the hydraulic disks on my commuter bike. I probably just got a bad pair but they have been more of a PITA than all of the other brakes I have had in 43 years of riding put together.

I feel that '50s technology is fine and the major determinant of how I ride is my preparation and weight.

Kind of like my law practice. I only do one thing, and people ask if I want to take different types of cases, and I say "I'm too old to learn anything new."

I know what I like and I like what I know!

8/19/15 3:57 PM

Said it before... the BB30 internal cable routed Disc Roubiax had me do an about face.
I am squarely back in the same camp as Dan, and glad about it.

I already have built up that 90s steel 753 machine and the new straight 1-1/8 head tube with threaded BB Steel CX green machine. Although I confess I had Carl put Di2 Ports in it. ;) Even though I squared away the SL4 Roubaix issues, I can not forget the miles of annoyance in riding prior to solving. And glad to see the back of it... before said issues may have showed their ugly noisy faces....

I gotta get rid of those ST-6770 Di2 STIs before I have a relapse...

BTW, I got them for 99.00 shipped, they are down to 59.00 in case anyone feels the dark side of the force overwhelming at that price..

http://www.jensonusa.com/!QS0mvhWV6jQ48UPQBwNOJQ!/Shimano-Di2-Ultegra-ST-6770-Shift-Levers?utm_source=FRGL&utm_medium=organic&gclid=CIT9v7iStscCFQIQaQodbJoFGw

8/19/15 6:08 PM

Uh, nope. If you ever had to bleed lines and deal with that mess you will be good without it. Unlike brake lines for MTBs that are all external, a road bike with internal routing will require all kinds of fittings and such and I have to think the set-up will be a pain also. Bleed, pump, bleed again, fill, bleed, then finally adjust, go for a ride and you have a freakin leak. With my cables, I can carry an allen stock for a few rides and if things aren't perfect I can just adjust the tension on the fly.

I see this as a Rube Goldberg machine.

8/19/15 9:26 PM

It takes some skill/patience, but truthfully... How often do you bleed your automobile brakes?!

" then finally adjust, go for a ride and you have a freakin leak. With my cables, I can carry an allen stock for a few rides and if things aren't perfect I can just adjust the tension on the fly. "

How often does your automobile brake system leak?! 99.9% sure there will be adjustment dials....no wrenches needed.

Lets see more detail @ euro/interbike!

8/20/15 5:46 AM

...hydraulic shifting should require minimal maintenance. I've never had a brake leak on any MTB, despite the abuse they suffer. Bleeding will be necessary during the initial setup, but probably very rarely after that. As for requiring a bunch of fittings, you're just making that up. A hydraulic line can be run just like a cable housing or a electronic shifter wire. The only fittings are at the ends.

The upsides of hydraulic shifting should be better precision and durability than mechanical shifting, lower cost than electronic shifting and less weight than either.

I'm a little surprised to see this already, as the I just saw the patent a few days ago.

8/20/15 7:07 AM

quote:

---

The upsides of hydraulic shifting should be better precision and durability than mechanical shifting....

---

8/20/15 9:27 AM

With a firmware update these work fine with the newer 11sp system, so not obsolete yet! And just $59.
For that price would make decent and stylish levers for a singlespeed or for a standard vintage bike, sans STI shifting of course. They even come with brake cables/housing.

Reading the product reviews, I found this interesting:

"Comments about Shimano Di2 Ultegra ST-6770 Shift Levers:

I purchased this item to replace exciting shifters. I did not know that they require more components to make the system work. They are part of an electric shift system."

8/20/15 10:23 AM

i'm interested to see how good this ends up.

from the moto world, i'm familiar with hydro brakes and hydro clutches...but nothing as precise as shifting. maybe the hydro part doesnt need to be so precise after all. just a metered amount of fluid per actuation to provide sufficient impulse ...with the indexing/ratcheting mech providing the precision.

8/20/15 10:59 AM

Rotor even shows them in its patent documents:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/08/13/patent-trolling-rotor-application-shows-single-lever-one-way-mechanical-and-hydraulic-shifting/?utm_source=MadMimi&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Bikerumor+-+Hang+With+a+Hoonigan%2C+Crankworx+Coverage%2C+Hydraulic+Road+Shifting+%26+Much+More!&utm_campaign=20150819_m127014583_Bikerumor+-+Hang+With+a+Hoonigan%2C+Crankworx+Coverage%2C+Hydraulic+Road+Shifting+%26+Much+More!&utm_term=patent+drawings

Sorry for the long URL.

8/20/15 12:05 PM

6770 Levers are 315 grams, so for brake duty on a SS, that makes some sense.
When I do the bar tape over on the Old Strong SS maybe they can get used..

8/20/15 2:41 PM

They're unloved and unwanted now that the 6970's have a sprint shifter port built in, but for a spare set its hard to pass up.

8/20/15 3:50 PM

Yeah, I suppose if you add enough T's and branch hydraulic lines it is possible to have shifters at more than one location but the complexity has to be far greater than a simple pair of wires.

This thing still strikes me as a very complex way to replace a very simple system.

8/20/15 4:21 PM

Unless they aren't.

My Shimano hydraulic disks have sucked from the word go, screeching so loud I wouldn't ride the bike, leaking and having to be bled repeatedly. They work OK now, having both been replaced in their entirety. But the front still screeches when it's wet, stopping when it dries out. I have no idea why.

Perhaps most don't have these problems, but an issue for me is that I can deal with any problem with a caliper or canti, but I'm not a skilled mechanic and I'm not going to screw with bleeding or repacing a hydraulic line. So there has been a big amount of out of service time while the bike is at the LBS because of brakes I don't even want. I know Brian hates cantis, but they work fine for me.

8/20/15 7:29 PM

Looking at those patent docs, I would have to say that the Rotor system not only does not need hydraulics to realize it's main benefits, because the accuracy of the shifting doesn't rely on the transmission lines, whether cable or hydraulic.

Interestingly enough, Shimano used to have indexing built into their rear derailers, both with their low-cost Positron system and with their pre-SIS Dura-Ace AX rear derailer. I've often wondered why it was abandoned, other than that there needed to be either some added spring tension to overcome downshift (to smaller cogs) detenting force or a rigid, push-pull cable wire and housing.
As I recall, the AX derailer had much stronger detenting in the "upshift" (to larger cogs) direction, so that the return spring needn't be made so stiff.

8/20/15 9:19 PM

8/20/15 9:32 PM

"Multiple Shift Locations"


Actually the Di2 features/remotes for road and TT are pretty attractive IMO.

8/20/15 10:56 PM

I think that the complexity of the Rotor system pictorials appears to exceed that of contemporary mechanical indexing systems, but this is misleading because A) the hydraulic portion is as simple as can be and B) the complex-looking derailers appear so only because almost the entirety of the shifter mechanism lies therein.

"Branching" the hydraulic lines to multiple shifter locations, while purely optional, also is made simpler than any non-hydraulic system could be, since there is no need for any kind of valve where the junctions occur, simply a "T"-fitting.

I remember years ago, guessing as to how SRAM's levers operated via a single lever each (left and right), and just as I guessed then is how this system also operates, which simplifies the plumbing or cabling in this case, since the Rotor design can be actuated by either method.

What the Rotor design will not do is control the speed that the cage moves during the shift, nor will it allow more than mere sprung force to act in one of the chosen directions that the front derailer cage must travel. Electric derailers do both, and further can be programmed to shift in unison, or automatically.