8/1/15 10:53 AM

Ok Im on 10 speed rear end now. I was looking at the 11 speed stuff. The only reason I would go to 11 speed at this point would be to get a 20 on my 11-21 (make it a straight block), or to get an 18 in my 11-23 or 12-25. Guess what. No such thing readily available. Its nonsense with big jumps like 11-28 more suited to MTB riding or cross with a single ring.

Silly me--just thought it should make sense. Big jumps are hard on the legs

8/1/15 10:59 AM

Look at the junior cassette ratios. You might get what you want if you give up the high end a little. but use a 39/53 to fix that to a degree.

But a junior cassette with a 39/53 is fairly old school and a lot closer with 10 cogs. I am not sure if thee are 11 speed junior cassettes...

Me with my fat old ars, I was on my Six13 with 34/50 and a 11-32 XT cassette on one of my local hilly loops and coulda use a little lower in a few spots. There was zig zagging involved on two particular hills. Ones you rather not walk up. ;O

8/1/15 2:35 PM

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Silly me--just thought it should make sense. Big jumps are hard on the legs

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or to get an 18 in my 11-23 or 12-25.

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8/1/15 4:07 PM

My objection to nearly all 11-speed and most 10-speed cassettes is that they start with an 11T cog. How many riders, other than pros, can really use a 52 or 53x11 or even a 50x11 gear?

That worthless 11T cog always costs a far more useful interior cog. My "ideal" 10-speed cassette is Campy's 13x29 or, less ideal but still good, Shimano's 12x27 10-speed. I wish someone made a 12x30 or 13x30 11-speed.

8/1/15 4:16 PM

Campy has 12-27 and 12-29 11 speeds. I have both, but I haven't used the 29 yet.

I'm confident Anthony knows what he can use, but I think he represents a fairly select segment of the "real world."

8/1/15 4:27 PM

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My objection to nearly all 11-speed and most 10-speed cassettes is that they start with an 11T cog. How many riders, other than pros, can really use a 52 or 53x11 or even a 50x11 gear?

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8/1/15 5:05 PM

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You can always use more sensible chainrings on the front.

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8/1/15 7:34 PM

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The only reason I would go to 11 speed at this point would be to get a 20 on my 11-21 (make it a straight block), or to get an 18 in my 11-23 or 12-25

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8/1/15 7:43 PM

I'd be fine with no 11 tooth cog. But for my fat ars climbing antics I need a 11-32, and they do not make a 12-32 that I am aware...

8/1/15 8:02 PM

and no 12, for that matter. I still run Campy 9-speed, and for some time I've used a 13-26 cassette, with 52-39 rings. It's all the range I need, enough low for the short steep stuff here, and high enough to spin out and tuck somewhere above 35 mph. If I did races or fast group rides and had to chase on descents, I might need more, but I don't do that stuff any more.

8/1/15 8:13 PM

I'd still want/use the 12 with a 50 front though...

8/2/15 6:28 AM

Anthony represents one small segment of the "real world".

JohnC represents another, albeit larger segment.

Both are real.

While I'm in John's camp. I don't understand why there're so few choices!

Why does the bike industry has 20 different derailleur hanger (a rider in my broke broke his yesterday, and none of the shops nearby has the one he need in stock), but only a handful gear combo?

8/2/15 6:57 AM

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Why does the bike industry has 20 different derailleur hanger (a rider in my broke broke his yesterday, and none of the shops nearby has the one he need in stock), but only a handful gear combo?

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8/2/15 12:48 PM

I use a 12-27 and a 12-23 paired with 50/34 rings. (10 speed)

The 11 is of no use to me here. There are no hills that long and steep that I go down that would warrant an 11 and I sure as the world can't push it on the flats so I just don't mess with it.

The 12-23 is perfect for fast and flat, with nice gaps etc. The 12-27 lets me stay in the big ring on most of my rolling hills rides here (some short 10-15% grades). I like not having to go to the low range, it just makes things a no brainer.

I use Shimano cassettes and chains with SRAM shifting systems and they work perfectly.

I won't go to 11 unless I go electronic. Di2 Ultegra would be pretty cool.

8/2/15 4:28 PM

I had hoped for a 12-30t offering when the world was newly into 10-cog cassettes, but over time I realized that the only problem with having to ride with "last year's" cog count is that I didn't go back far enough!
So out comes the vintage bikes, where a 13-26t six-speed freewheel with traditional 52-40t chainrings turns out to be about all that is really needed to keep up at least 99% of the time.
Once committed to the wider ratio spacing, the less-frequent shifting presents both a less "busy" riding experience as well as a more ergonomic one, what without all that wrist-twisting.

True, that the transient overloading stress on one's leg muscles (force levels and oxygen/nutrient supply) must theoretically be greater when riding wider gear ratios, but riding technique (strategic shifting, drafting, pedaling and lifting off of the saddle when needed) almost completely makes up for that, once the rider's mind and body (including arms) have acclimated.

2-1/2 years ago, I took on the challenge of keeping up with my most challenging and hilly group rides using just five cogs in back and two (52 and 36t) chainrings. Once I got used to doing the ratio gap-splitting double-shift when using the left/front shifter, I realized that very little in terms of comfort or performance was actually being lost.
In fact, the tricky double-shift with the old friction shifters provides an entertaining challenge, a welcome distraction from the perceived discomfort of trying to hang with a possibly faster group of riders.

Here's the drivetrain I ended up with, that's a custom 13-24t freewheel on there, with 9sp chain:

8/2/15 5:02 PM

You folks complaining about no gear choices should have been riding in '72 when I started, for a 10 speed you got a 14-21 5 speed freewheel if you raced, 14-28 if you didn't (both with a 52/42 or even 52/45 like my PX10). Now on my cross bike I have 44/28 with 12-30 10 speed, and it works great. The gaps don't bother me; if they bother you and you want that range, then you can get a triple.

For me the proliferation of gearing options is the most important change in bikes since '72 when I started. More important than frame materials, pedals or shifters. Though it's also true that when every increase in cogs came out, I said "who needs that?"

My only 11 is on my Mt Washington bike, where I have an old microdive 42/32/20, which I sometimes run with an 11-23. 42x11 ain't bad! I also have used it with a 13-29, giving me a 20x29. And no one forces you to buy an 11. There are plenty with 12. You may not need that either, but you have 10 others cogs.

And for gearing options I also have a 14 speed Rohloff, for pure shifting purposes my favorite of all. Life is good in Gearland!

8/2/15 6:09 PM

I am currently using a 12 as my smallest cog, but I run a compact, and there have been some races this year when we are hauling a----s in the trail wind section and I am spinning out my 50/12 and clicking for more gear so I might go for an 11 next year, granted if I was running a 53 that wouldn't be an issue but I use the same bike for both dead flat fast crits and super hilly road races, so it has to be as versatile as possible.

8/2/15 9:42 PM

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You folks complaining about no gear choices should have been riding in '72 when I started, for a 10 speed you got a 14-21 5 speed freewheel if you raced, 14-28 if you didn't

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8/3/15 6:42 AM

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in '72 when I started, for a 10 speed you got a 14-21 5 speed freewheel if you raced, 14-28 if you didn't (both with a 52/42 or even 52/45....

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The gaps don't bother me; if they bother you and you want that range, then you can get a triple.

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8/3/15 7:00 AM

John, actually my first 10 speed was a Raleigh Gran Prix that was probably pretty similar to your UO8. I think it cost $125. I caught the bug and got a PX10 the next year which I think was $250. 531, sewups, lots of French components. I thought that bike was a rocket.

8/3/15 4:20 PM

Count me as one who really hated my Bridgestone 400's 14-32t, 6s freewheel. It was gone on the second day!

Admittedly, when I later first used a modern-style drivetrain with STI, I was impressed, and figured (and stated here at the time) that now it would be hard going back to riding a bike without the impressive levers!

Yet, over the years, and having since built and tested a rather large number of road-going drivetrains, it's became apparent that integrated levers alone were not such the big deal, overall.
Integrated shifters mandated the inclusion of smooth/accurate cabling for one thing, and mandated the use of Hyperglide technology to permit safe shifting while riding off of the saddle.
Those two "mandated" technologies, along with the fully-modern derailer architecture (which maintains a small, more-constant chain gap), alone, will revolutionize the drivetrain feel of any very old bike, particularly when the cabling is as short as is permitted by downtube shift levers. And HG cogs here aren't even quite as good as the older UG cogs, which give better real-time feedback as to friction-shifted gear selection.
I'll admit I'm somewhat biased here, in that my local foothills terrain favors wider ratio gaps that reduce the number of needed shifts, but I can do without any wrist-twisting, thank you.

So I have to credit the modern chain firstly, with transforming cycling.
And I would credit any good clipless pedals with a close second-place spot.
And while wider rims are certainly nothing new, there's another trend I can really get behind, while really appreciating modern tires.
The rest of road bike's improvements I consider optional at best, though my favorite saddles admittedly seem to be of recent design, and for racing I might want an aero wheelset and lower overall weight.
Yes, brakes too have become lower-effort, but with a more-immediate response that is only much appreciated when other riders around me are using them.

I don't know how much extra effort I expended doing the local "Fast Fridays" ride using this 22lb, 1977 Ron Cooper, but it really didn't seem like much. And the 40-26t low gear still gets me up even our steepest climbs.
And while I could at times use taller that the 52-13t high gear, it's not mission-critical, and this 6-speed freewheel's wider cog spacing (whilst using narrow 9s chain) makes for a most-forgiving shifting action.

8/3/15 4:44 PM

Whore-Ratios:. I was grabbing two up and two down a lot today on the maiden road voyage of the green machine. The 12-25 10 speed with and when in the 32 front ring make it feel so close ratio. Wonder if the 11-32 will be wider enough to not do double taps. [clicks, bar cons]

8/3/15 7:07 PM

I think you'll have to get up beyond the 15t before the ratios "loosen" up, if I remember the ratios on my 10sp 11-32 (cut down to 12-32t to fit on a 7s hub).

Whenever I see a 'cross bike with typical tight road stack on the rear hub, I have to just chuckle, why it seems I can easily out-accelerate bikes with such ratios on the 'cross course.

To many required shifts for the terrain gets really old in the real world, especially when it means having to drop off the big ring any more than occasionally.

8/4/15 11:15 AM

Ok let me preface this by saying this has been an up and down season. Ive managed to win 5 races (3RR, 2TT) all masters and a few top 5s in Pro/1/2 events. Ive also had days when I've been drilled in Masters races but here goes.

My front derailleur is adjusted so I can shift 52,53, or 54 big ring without adjusting the derailleur. The chain is cut to accommodate and wrap a 39 inside ring, but I also use a 42 or 44.

I have found the 54 useful in fast crits with long straights and wide corners as well as flattish road races as it gives me a little more bite on each gear, ie a 54/15 will cut it where a 53/15 won't, and I tend to ride a tooth or two under what everyone else is riding (so if the field is in a 13 I'll be in a 15).

The 53 works better for rolling road races and crits with tight corners as it lets me power over some stuff without downshifting and gives me a bit more snap out of corners.

The 52 works best for hilly road races as it allows me some big ring climbing.

I prefer the 44 inside most of the time, 44/18 lets me ride along at about 18-19 mph on the flat which is fine for breakfast rides and I can handle up to 23 comfortably in 44/17. In rolling or hilly road races it gives me a pretty seamless option to ride the grades and false flats on the small ring without shifting the front.

If I think I'll need smaller gears, I'll go to the 42 or 39. For the training/breakfast ride scenario, 42/17-16, and 39/16-15 slot into the 44/18-17 usage. So it just changes the angle and side of the cassette I am working off of.

BTW when I started (as what was then an "intermediate") I had a 13,15,17,19,21 with a 52/42. My coach at the time spun took off the 13 and 15 to make my gear limit, so for 2 years I rode a 52/42 with a 3 speed 17,19,21 rear end. When I turned 15 he put the 15 back on. Shortly after I got 2 new freewheels, 15-19 straight and 15,16,17,19,21 for hilly races.

One more thing, I do use the 11, primarily for 3 purposes. 1) Closing gaps downhill, 2) Resting in a big field after I have made an effort--I find as my age increases I recover better at slower rpm, so if I can hide on a wheel and the field is over 30mph the 11 sometimes makes a good recovery gear, and 3) When the sprint is winding up from a kilometer or more out, I can use the big gear to hit the front an launch my sprint to accelerate from 30+ to 40+ mph for a short distance.

Obviously on the track I ride much lower gears, but the races are shorter and I can't shift, so gears in the 90s are a good compromise, and I adjust chainrings and cogs depending on the track and the size and speed of the field.

8/4/15 11:53 AM

Reading that last post I am reminded of the Star Trek original series Episode 'Wink of an Eye"

And I am not in the Scalosian side of that dimensional coin on the bike. I felt slower just reading that....