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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/15/15 7:42 PM |
Thinking of giving up cycling
Not all cycling, but "performance" cycling. The kind that one gets a work out, sweat, heart rate, average speed kind of cycling.
I've been riding with various bike clubs since the mid-90's. Having ridden with many 70-80 year old riders, I thought I too would ride to that age. If it's just being fit enough to keep turning the crank, I still do that pretty good.
However, the first 15 years of my club riding, I only had one crash (which I walked away from, by luck). Yet the past 5 years, I had 4 crashes, 3 of them required visit to the ER. The last 2 crashes were less than 10 rides apart (though 6 months by calendar): basically, I crashed late last season. And then crashed again when I got back on the bike this spring. Far too frequent for comfort.
This brought up some dark memories from deep down. While in California, I witnessed two fatalities of club-mates. Both of them in their 60's. Freshly retired, putting a lot of miles on the bike. Both of them single bike accident that no one ever figured out the cause. One of the rider had just survived and recovered from a recent crash before the fatal crash struck, that's after 10+ years of no incidents. Perhaps different people age differently, and there're some small changes as one age that may not be obvious yet one should pay close attention too?
My last crash, upon reflection, I was slow to react after hitting a pot hole that threw the handlebar sharply to one side. Not that I can be sure I could have salvage the situation, just the fact I was slow to react... perhaps my reflex had slowed enough to be dangerous to be riding at group ride speed?
Also, while I had plenty of crashes back when I was mtn biking, none caused any serious injuries. I was just much better at rolling and absorbing the impact, or just pure lucky for too long, or my body is no longer as resilient as 10 years ago?
I have many other interests, hiking, kayaking, skiing... I won't be bored even if I don't ride at all. Though I'm not thinking of not riding. Just not riding at the edge of lactate acid threshold.
Last edited by April on 5/15/15 7:52 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19083
Location: PDX5/15/15 7:48 PM |
To aspire to ride safer and seeing forest for trees instead of seeing increases at all costs, or even less than all costs....
Sensible and Smart IMO.
Hope you enjoy it even more in the modified mode.
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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4391
Location: metro-motown-area5/15/15 8:28 PM |
somewhat similar place, to race or not
i'm re-assessing the risk/reward equation for racing.
i was really enjoying getting back into it, really enjoying getting the kind of condition i can only get from racing, really enjoying being race-fit.
but, man, i have a basic non-displaced pelvic fracture...and all the costs of this injury in terms of interruption to my normal active non-cycling lifestyle...it's a big tariff!
my old bones dont bounce or heal as well as when i was young!
maybe i'll just restrict my racing to tail-gunning and staying (mostly) out of the fray...not quite as rewarding, but still mixing it up. long way to go before i decide...gotta get back to walking normally first!
Last edited by walter on 5/15/15 9:01 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19083
Location: PDX5/15/15 9:01 PM |
As I have said to Walter in email. If I do race it will be TT and against the clock, and my previous times for the most part. Still have the TT bike and I may get to it. It is a lot less risky that mass start or even crazy aggressive club riding.
A goal of mine is to make it thru life without any more broken bones. Damn I am tire of that disruption and pain...
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/15/15 9:30 PM |
That's the rub...
quote:
i was really enjoying getting back into it, really enjoying getting the kind of condition i can only get from racing, really enjoying being race-fit.
Although I don't race, still the same hold true. It's the pushing hard part that brings out the flood of endorphin that makes the sport addictive! Dial it back, I'm not sure it'll feel the same.
Cycling is probably one of the "cheapest" (easiest) to achieve high heart rate with relatively low wear and tear to the rest of the body. That is, if one can stay on the bike without hitting the pavement with the wrong body part.
My biggest concern is there's no easy way to assess my own reaction speed, or ways to keep it up. I stopped doing most "ball games" for some years now, there's not much that requires quick reaction until I absolutely needs it. That's not a very good situation to be in.
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JohnC
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 1939
Location: Glastonbury, Ct5/15/15 10:32 PM |
I just turned 65, and I still enjoy riding, and riding hard sometimes. I get a workout, I sweat, my heart rate goes up. I don't track my average speed or heart rate. And I almost never ride in a group -- it's pretty much all solo.
So, dd I already "give up cycling"?
In over 40 years of road cycling, I've had one crash that resulted in medical treatment (broken wrist).
FWIW, I don't think reaction speed had anything to do with the crash you described. If you had avoided the pothole, or bunny-hopped or unweighted so the wheel didn't deflect, you could have avoided a crash. But if the wheel deflects sharply, there's no recovering. I don't think anyone's reflexes could deal with that. So your conclusion that you've lost something significant may not be accurate.
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sanrensho
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 835
Location: North Vancouver5/15/15 11:43 PM |
Focus on alpine climbs? Speeds are much slower at 5-9% grades, cars around you are moving slower. Also thins the number of riders out, so you have much less chance of being taken out.
Generally, I have never felt safer than when climbing my local mountain (12 km 7% grade, 5 minutes out the door).
Just take it easy on the descents.
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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2626
Location: Canberra, Australia5/16/15 2:29 AM |
I agree with the other suggestions to just go hard on climbs if you want a good workout. If you can manage 20kph up a 6% climb, you're working harder than if you were doing 40kph on level ground, but you're a lot safer when it comes to avoiding road hazards and other riders and traffic.
My wife and I ride two or three times a week with a bunch of other retirees, and with that bunch we just roll along in a relaxed manner until we come to the climbs, where those who want to go hard do so and wait at the top for those who don't. The riders' ages range from mid-50s to mid-70s. Normally anywhere from 15 to 25 riders, and in the five years we've been riding with this bunch, I can only recall one crash (by one rider on his own on one of the climbs, and no-one, including him, knows how it happened).
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/16/15 6:08 AM |
quote:
I just turned 65, and I still enjoy riding, and riding hard sometimes. I get a workout, I sweat, my heart rate goes up. I don't track my average speed or heart rate. And I almost never ride in a group -- it's pretty much all solo.
I'm sorry. I've put it badly. I guess what I meant to say is "cycling as I've known it".
I had one crash some 15 years ago, in twilight hitting a low curb, I concluded I should plan to finish the ride early so I have the best light. Easy to do.
After my crash 5 years ago (pulling out of pedal in a bunny hop in tight space). I concluded I should not let the wheel leave ground in tight space. Easy to do.
Then 2 years ago, steep descend on curvy roads, bad judgement of safe speed. So I concluded I should slow down on descend. Now that's cutting into the enjoyment of climbing (what goes up must come down).
The last 2 crashes are both accidents in normal riding (slow leak lead to lost traction, pot hole camouflaged by leafy shadow in strong sun). I ran out of things "not to do" except not to ride!
I'm searching for the kind of rides I can still enjoy...
Last edited by April on 5/16/15 6:32 AM; edited 2 times in total
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/16/15 6:23 AM |
quote:
Focus on alpine climbs? Speeds are much slower at 5-9% grades, cars around you are moving slower.
Yeah but... what happens after I reach the top? ;-)
I had always focus on climbs. I don't know how much more I can "focus" on climbs without doing some easy riding to recover.
BTW, there's no "alpine" climbs in the lower Hudson Valley. not without a lot of driving to the start, which kind of defeats the big advantage of cycling. (what I have a lot of is rollers that keeping the speed up makes the climb much easier)
quote:
one rider on his own on one of the climbs, and no-one, including him, knows how it happened
That's what bothered me all these years, so many "don't know how" kind of crashes. Difference being in one such incident, the rider I was with died.
Rationally, these should be considered "freak accidents" that I should just accept. And I did, until I had one myself end of last season. Then again less than 10 rides later.
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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6890
Location: Maine5/16/15 7:49 AM |
A few thoughts
I'll provide a couple thoughts, even though I'm younger then JohnC (ha ha I won't be 65 until September).
April I think my approach is similar to your earlier approach of setting your own parameters. I love cycling, and also am very interested in not hurting myself. So I accept some risks and rule others out. I don't race (not that I'm good enough or have any interest anyway) and mostly shy away from large, competitive group rides. Both of those provide crash opportunities from factors beyond your control, and little margin of error for your own mistakes. I do tts occasionally and large event rides. Sometimes in events I'll get in a small group I'm comfortable with, but lots of the time I'm riding solo. I'm also conservative in descents and fast corners, always have been. That doesn't bother me at all.
Like you, I have had a crash from a slow leak. I basically looked at that as anomalous, and resolved to be extra careful in repairing flats (I think I missed a tiny wire fragment in repairing a previous flat). A disguised pothole I would say is also pretty anomalous, you may not be able to do much about it, you might just resolve to be even more vigilant in the future. I also think (based on talking with you at D2R2) that you are pretty self-critical, so you may be being harder on yourself than the situation merits.
That said, the consequences of crashes can be severe. I wrote about my friend who just broke his leg. I have another friend who sustained a head injury in a race. I guess I react to that by choosing to stay away from what I consider high risk situations (races, big group rides, aggressive riding in general). A great thing about cycling is that everyone can choose the type and level of riding they do.
So I suggest giving it some time and focusing on what you enjoy most about cycling.
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/16/15 10:21 AM |
Thanks all for the thoughtful answers.
Dan, you were the one who were at my bed side immediately after my crash at D2R2. So I'll take your assessment with special consideration.
quote:
I also think (based on talking with you at D2R2) that you are pretty self-critical, so you may be being harder on yourself than the situation merits.
I don't want to be too hard on myself, I've had enough of that growing up. Am I putting too much weight on these recent crashes? Are they just a collection of bad timing with a string of bad lucks? Or are they a sign I should take heed of? That's the question for me to answer. It's pretty hard for me to accept the large number of crashes so close to each other as "just bad luck".
I couldn't get it out of my head my club-mate in California, who survived a bad crash only to died from another one within a year, on a smooth road with no traffic.
quote:
A disguised pothole I would say is also pretty anomalous, you may not be able to do much about it
I wasn't thinking of "doing much about it". It's the realization that I was slow to "do anything" (had there been anything to be done) about it!
Fortunately in this case, I had a long flight from the bike to the ground so I had enough time to tuck and roll, avoiding even worse outcomes. But, back when I was mtn biking, I would have run through my options, deciding on one and execute it, in that same space of time.
I'm thinking more of future situation that a quick reaction might make a difference, concerned that I probably won't be reacting as quickly as I should have.
quote:
you might just resolve to be even more vigilant in the future.
The latest crash bothers me the most because being "more vigilant" at all time is something I'm not very good at.
After the crash at D2R2, I was skittish on long descends. So much so I just avoided any routes with big long climbs because I was too worry about the descend that would follow. That eliminated a lot of rides out of my "route library". I thought I would eventually get over it and go back to riding big climbs and the descends. Except I crashed twice since then. So that really doesn't help to "get over" the nervousness.
I'm just not sure how much I'll be able to enjoy "just riding" if I had to be constantly vigilant about potholes and cracks. (coming from a mtn bike background, I don't normally pay much attention to small potholes. I just let the bike roll over them) Also, where I normally ride, the roads are very typically have tree shadows disguising practically all potholes except the really big ones. So the anomalous is in fact the norm.
Much as I dislike of big group rides, more pairs of eyes often helps to spot holes and such. That's offset by having to ride close to each other and having less room to move around obstacles after they're spotted.
Ultimately, it'll come down to how I feel when I get back on the bike. After my big crash at D2R2, I went back on the bike as soon as I could despite the doctor's advice to the contrary, because I was so "confident" I have NO chance of crashing while my bone was still healing. My past stat supports it at that point. But that's changed now. That "confidence" was completely shattered by the two recent crashes so close to each other, under such "normal" conditions.
Last edited by April on 5/16/15 2:56 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19083
Location: PDX5/16/15 11:13 AM |
" That "confidence" was completely shattered by the two recent crashes so close to each other, under such "normal" conditions."
That sounds familiar to me. It took the 2006 ski broken leg to get my brain to actually 'be' 50 and not 25 anymore. It is not that I am afraid per say, extreme risks just makes less sense to me anymore from that point on. I actually scrub speed on cycling descents in these last few years, something I never used to do on the bicycle.
I also had a semi realization similarly in the late 80 when two serious almosts on the MC occurred in two adjacent seasons.
I was not afraid to go fast after that, the impetus had however run out. First on motorcycle, and in the last years few years the bicycle.
Probably a good thing. Are we just growing up?
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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real5/16/15 12:01 PM |
I gave up on my yearly charity ride for Alzheimer's because of just seeing to many crashes. I have not given up on going fast and in fact I am faster this year than years past because I have lifted weights more than ever. I race the locals via Strava and rarely ride with groups at all. If I crash I want it to be my fault.
I have allotted at least one ride a week with my wife at a very leisurely pace and we have loved it.
Seeing $12k worth of bikes on the ground in one simple two up crash between experienced riders and a top tier coach go down because of his own stupidity has taught me to be very leery of other riders.
I would love to race again but I feel it just is not worth the risks anymore.
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/16/15 12:05 PM |
I can't blame others for my own crash. All the crashes in question were single bike crashes. Mine or the fatality I witnessed.
While speed makes crashes more severe, none of the crashes in question (except my own at D2R2) were speed related. Part of the reason I got so leery is the randomness of these crashes. I used to think if I ride sensibly, I will be safe. I've now been proven wrong.
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19083
Location: PDX5/16/15 1:59 PM |
" I used to think if I ride sensibly, I will be safe. I've now been proven wrong."
Complacency instead of being on the rivet's state of alertness?
I get that...
Re Erik: The Tandem and Elaine riding with me on her Plastic bike has been a hard thing for me to learn to do. But has helped me get away from going as fast as I can always while on the bike. And like you I do that when I ride alone more-so. I just like company on longer rides to make the time disappear. 4-5 hours solo get tedious.
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/16/15 2:08 PM |
quote:
Complacency instead of being on the rivet's state of alertness?
Question is, do I want to be at "the rivet's state of alertness" all the time?
That's not what I seek out on my weekends.
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19083
Location: PDX5/16/15 2:30 PM |
I totally get it...
Some folks just slack off and even stop and come back later too.
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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6890
Location: Maine5/16/15 4:40 PM |
Vigilance
If you don't want to be vigilant and alert, you shouldn't be on a bike period. But to me there are different contexts. Riding solo, I don't find it an issue. Basically you are scanning the road ahead, and I do that automatically while my mind goes wherever it wants (I think of my mental state on solo rides as zen-like, though technically that's not probably correct, I may think about work issues, what I will have for dinner, whatever). I don't find that stressful or problematic.
I consider a group ride a whole different kettle of fish, particularly if there is a tight paceline. In that case, you have to be hyperattentive to the riders and road conditions in front of you, and you have big responsibilities to the riders behind you (you can't just coast or hit the brakes or stand up to stretch your back any time you feel like it, and you need to signal road hazards). I used to love that situation, but now I'd usually prefer to avoid it.
More than once at the end of a long event some guy will jump on my wheel and I'll turn around and say "my back is sore and I'm going to stand up whenever I feel like it, and if you hit my wheel don't blame me."
So I feel I can ride solo safely in a very relaxed state, and I only undertake group rides when I feel ready for it. YMMV.
In group rides I'm at times somewhat of a "tweener." The A group may be a bit too fast, and the B group pack may be a place I'd prefer not to be. The last B group ride I did I sat in the pack a few minutes, then said "get me the hell out of here," went to the front and stayed there.
That said, tomorrow I'll choose between a solo ride and a group ride with a small group I'm comfortable with. Leaning toward the group, but it will be a game time decision. :)
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/16/15 6:17 PM |
quote:
If you don't want to be vigilant and alert, you shouldn't be on a bike period.
But the vast population of the world are riding their bike all over the place WITHOUT being super vigilant!
I must admit that's what I had ALWAYS think of cycling. It's not a sport, just a way of being.
I don't walk around watching the signage above my head so I can get out of the way in case it falls down. I also don't watch for cars jumping the curb and hit me from behind. Nor do I stay super vigilant while out "just riding". Sure, on fast descend, I pay attention to look as far ahead. But not just cruising down a side street with smooth roads (with a single hard-to-spot pothole)!
quote:
Basically you are scanning the road ahead, and I do that automatically while my mind goes wherever it wants
I do that too. The day I crashed was no exception: I scanned the road ahead and didn't see the pothole!
Geometry dictates, moving at x speed, one can see pothole of size y at distance z ahead. Any pothole smaller than size y will only be noticed when one gets closer. Perhaps too late to avoid moving at that speed.
It's pothole size smaller than y that got me! It's not the size of the hole, it's the shape and how the front wheel hit it.
Some people slow WAY DOWN when they spot any microscopic road imperfection, road debris, sand, dirt, you name it. Going on a club ride, I hear this "hole", "sand", "car back" non-stop if certain subset of members were in the group.
I, on the other hand, had build through years of experience, of the size of potholes I can ignore and those I need to pay attention to. Until I went down, that is.
If I can't ride without second guessing which of the tiniest pothole will "get" me, I know I won't enjoy the riding. There's no point in getting back on the bike if that's the case.
Though somehow, I don't see myself not riding a bike as normal person. So it's just what kind of bike riding that I should be doing that won't put me in the hospital again!
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Pat Clancy
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 1353
Location: Manchester, CT5/16/15 6:37 PM |
Trail riding?
The last couple of years my road riding has dropped way off. I'm fortunate to have quick access to a fairly extensive set of rail trails where I can ride in near total safety - even without wearing (the horror!) a helmet. I can spin like mad if I'm looking for aerobic exercise or just cruise gently along through the woods appreciating the shade on a hot, sunny day. And I can always keep an eye out for an intersecting single track if I feel up to a challenge. Have you got any rail trails or fire roads in your area?
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/16/15 6:45 PM |
The rail trail around me are in worse condition than the roads!
They're great if the objective is avoiding cars. They're NOT the best choice for smooth surface and mindless cruising.
Also, they're so flat that it gets boring after a while
(one thing Westchester lacks, is easy single track. Not willing to drive to ride frequently, I had pretty much stopped mountain biking. The trail network we do have, are all pretty rocky and technical. So it's not something I can do occasionally. It's either a lot of it, to keep up my skill. Or none of it, which was what I ended up doing)
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19083
Location: PDX5/16/15 8:17 PM |
The One! thing I miss about TN was the trail head to 900 acre nature park one mile from my house. With a 4.5 mile perimeter trail that was very technical for about 2 miles of the 4.5 per lap. I only managed 3 laps once. And you needed at least a front shock in those sections unless you wanted to walk...
I have a 15 mile [each way[ out and back gravel back roads here, but have to drive 9 miles to start. Not that I am complaining, but rolling out the drive way for a road ride is less time consuming.... Most places are down 500-550' from here, and I gotta get back up to get home. And when I am more tired then too. ;) Not that I am complaining....
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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven5/16/15 9:40 PM |
One idea that has worked for me to take a break from a type A cycling, is to get a decent fold up bike, like a Dahon. The idea being it is not a performance or racing bike, nor a heavy hybrid or tire humming mtb. It's easy to tote in the car trunk and drive off somewhere to ride in a scenic area, while avoiding a lot of junk (no scenic, traffics) miles. I do not use any instrumentation/cycling computer as well to avoid the need to think I need to ride harder or faster. By doing such it has changed my perspective on cycling and has provided a great sense of enjoyment at times when I needed a break from competitive cycling, but still get a really good aerobic workout. I have logged quite a few miles on a fold up and have never come close to taking a spill.
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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC5/17/15 9:00 AM |
quote:
to take a break from a type A cycling
I'm not so much thinking of taking a break from type A riding. I never was into it to begin with.
But the last couple years, I got sucked into it with the club at Westchester. After every ride, people would compare their average speed, down to the last digit! I don't recall people doing that back in the New York City club. (though to be fair, the NY club rides tend to dissipate on the return leg as each rider peel off to their own apartment in the upper east/west rather than back to their car, so no chance to do that "comparison" thing at the end) I don't really enjoy that atmosphere.
I do enjoy riding with others, as long as there's no "target average speed" the group is aiming for. The tricky part being able to find a group that share that style of riding so I don't get sucked back into that 0.01 mph "improvement" of average speed atmosphere.
It's conceivable that I crashed a lot the last few years, which coincide with riding with this club, because I've gotten sucked into a more competitive style of riding than I've been doing in the past. I simply wasn't in the mental state to stay on the "rivet's edge" level of vigilant this style of riding requires.
quote:
...to ride in a scenic area, while avoiding a lot of junk (no scenic, traffics) miles.
I already have that right out my door in Westchester.
It's a bit of a shame that I'm in the middle of a very enjoyable riding environment many wish for, yet still can't find much company who enjoy the rides without constantly pushing for some "performance".
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CYCLING TECH TALK FORUM
