9/15/14 1:40 PM

I'm a lawyer but I don't work at all in this area so I have no special expertise.

If CC did assume warranty liability, it would seem that they have an obligation to replace the frame now that they have determined that they can't fix it. ABG says CC assumed warranty liability, and CC's initial response may be "carefully worded" but does not explicitly deny it. Obviously we don't know what the truth is at this point, ABG could be blowing smoke as well.

You could ask ABG to provide documentation that CC assumed warranty liability, and/or you could go back to CC and say "ABG informs me that you assumed warranty liability, so please replace this frame which you have determined that you cannot fix." If they deny that they assumed warranty liability, you could ask them for documentation.

Maybe someone else here more knowledgeable in this area could comment if there is a public source for the warranty info.

I think I'd just go back to CC and say "frame, please" and see how they respond.

Caveat: This is not legal advice.

Last edited by dan emery on 9/15/14 3:46 PM; edited 1 time in total

9/15/14 2:34 PM

We're thinking alike April.

I emailed CC late last week to inquire exactly what number their "slightly above cost" replacement frame would come out to. I'd love to have that piece of information before I volley this response back in their court with the implication that perhaps I need to take the issue to social media with a fair description and find out what experiences other Merlin owners have had.

Of course, I realize their next option could be, as Sparky mentioned, to deny based on crash claims. The frame has never been crashed, impacted in any way, or even placed on an indoor trainer.

I really wish they would just repair the existing frame because I loved the ride on it, but it sounds like their builder is too incompetent or too lazy to handle it, or perhaps that response is just CC's smokescreen. Their new Extralight is a somewhat different geometry (I can see the top tube and seat tube lengths are longer) that will be a pig in a poke. Might ride great, might not.

I'm still considering the Albert Bold repair, but I'd like to see how much CC will squirm and what they'll respond with.

Thanks for the opinion Dan. Good stuff.

9/15/14 3:25 PM

I wonder who is trying to evade responsibility here. For a retailer like CC, thats a big bite to take to warrant all previous Merlins, assuming ABG warranted the Mass. Merlins.

9/18/14 6:48 PM

Apparently, when you call it "limited" and belatedly decide to impose a previously unspecified time of 5 years, after which all failures are now considered to be normal "wear & tear".

Ok, I took April's suggestion and forwarded ABG's response back to the CC Warranty folks and asked why my claim is being denied. See pasted in response below.

Sparky, there is also your data point on what "slightly above cost" for a replacement frame comes to. Looks like they meant cost to dealer and not factory cost.

And Sparky, I'm becoming as cynical as you wrt modern business models. Marketing and Sales can promise anything, but corporate can put up enough hurdles that most people can't/won't clear.

I probably didn't handle this with enough tactical aplomb, but I think I'm about done with these guys. I'll plan to call Albert Bold in the morning about a repair appointment. ;-(




John L. Kaye | jkaye@backcountry.com | Add to Contacts
Today, Thursday, Sep 18 04:14 PM | Show Details | View source
RE: RE: FW: Merlin Extralight frame
Lee,

The Merlin you purchased from (ABG) has a “LIMITED lifetime warranty” ABG determined the “useful lifecycle” of their frames to be 5 years, and they would not warranty a frame older than that. I use to sell Merlin frames in the late 90’s and I know everyone would say that TI lasts forever…and it has a lifetime warranty…I’ve been doing warranties for 15 years now and TI fails every bit as fast and as frequently as carbon does! I’m sure the sales guy even told you it came with a lifetime warranty, when in fact it’s a “limited lifetime warranty”

The Merlin Extralight retails for $3500.00 and I can sell you one for $2400.00. This includes an Enve carbon fork and Chris King headset.
Below is the letter you would of received from ABG, and the one we now send.

Based upon the information we have received, we made the decision after over 7 years of use, this frame has simply come to the end of its useful life cycle. The warranty committee evaluated the information on the frame and concluded that it is suffering from wear and tear. This is not something which we will cover under warranty. We warranty against defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the frame. After over 7 years of use however, this frame has simply worn out and is not considered a defect. The lifetime of the frame can be affected by many different conditions (maintenance, rider weight, riding style, weather conditions, surface conditions, mileage, etc.) Although Titanium has a strong resistance to fatigue it does have a fatigue limit. A crack resulting from repeated stress of cycles above a critical point is called the fatigue limit. The stresses of cycling will eventually fatigue a frame until it cracks.

It is our policy based on experience that if the frame was suffering from a manufacturing defect, then the damage would have occurred much earlier in the use of the frame.



John Kaye
Product Solutions Manager-Bike
2605 South 3200 West
Suite B
West Valley City, Utah. 84119
888-276-7130
801-736-6396 ext.5617

From: leewilk
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 7:00 AM
To: John L. Kaye
Subject: Re: RE: FW: Merlin Extralight frame

John:

I contacted the American Bicycle Group, previous owners of the Merlin brand, and inquired whether they were covering the written warranty on my 2007 Extralight frame with the cracked weld. Their response is pasted in below. They essentially state that Competitive Cyclist agreed to cover warranty claims for the Merlin brand after the purchase. Is there a policy in place for why my claim is being denied?

Lee Wilk

9/18/14 6:56 PM

I don't understand why they talk about 7 years. You may have only ridden the bike a few times, or you may have ridden it to failure. If they want to impose limits, why does it not have an odometer like an auto?

This is really chicken shit of them. I hope you spread this all over the internets including the Paceline forum and Velocipede Salon.

Sorry to hear this lifetime/non lifetime warranty nonsense.

9/18/14 7:32 PM

Dfcas, My actual frame is 7 years old. My read on what they are saying is that 5 years is now the predetermined timeframe after which all failures are normal wear & tear.

9/18/14 7:41 PM

I have to say that this is amazing BS.

9/18/14 7:45 PM

I would find a new place to buy my stuff.

9/18/14 8:03 PM

$2400.00. This includes an Enve carbon fork and Chris King headset.


That is not terrible. But I would rather ride a plastic bike that look down at that thing. It is nor cheap enough to resell either and make a profit.

How long is the BS warranty on the new one? I bet that is a strong buying point for you.

I blame Romney. ;)

9/18/14 8:04 PM

If they make a lifetime warranty, I don't think they get to decide later that the lifetime is x-2. Since you have original documentation, you could certainly pursue this. You may decide it I is not worth the trouble, of course.

One formulation may be that ABG owes you a lifetime warranty and CC did not honor it. Arguably that does not extinguish ABG's warranty to you. So I think you could go back to ABG and say sorry, CC didn't take this one, and you still owe me. You could also go back to CC and say "BS, here is the lifetime warranty, it doesn't say 5 years, pay up."

If there were enough value, possibly you would just sue both of them. Of course there is not enough value for that, which is one problem with bicycle warranties. But you could certainly give both of them some more heat, as they are welching on the warranty they gave you, which is defined by your documents, not what they decide (or make up) later.

9/18/14 8:22 PM

Send a letter to Bicycling Magazine. Contact one of the editors.

9/18/14 8:36 PM

"Send a letter to Bicycling Magazine. Contact one of the editors"


+1

9/18/14 8:42 PM

That's the lamest excuse I've heard!!!

Again, following my "e-mail is cheap" theme, you may just browse their web site a bit and see if they're dtill making claim of " Ti last forever"

If you find any, you can quite that and ask them to remove such claim from any of their marketing material and replace with "Ti have a lifetime of 5 years", and see what they would say!

Last edited by April on 9/19/14 5:04 AM; edited 1 time in total

9/18/14 8:57 PM

Sure makes the 3 year warranty of the Scandium Fuji I bought new in 2000 seem less unreasonable then it did back then. 5 years for a Ti frame. Even Habanero has 5-year warranty against defects in material and workmanship for a shitload less coin. And plus a half-price crash replacement program.

I am starting to feel like you should follow a legal recourse. Go get another bike in the mean time once you get documented refusal. I bet they will be paying for it anyway. Question is how far down the road will it be.

It is all kinds of bullshit to be sure!

9/19/14 2:49 AM

Didn't Bob Mionske have a legal column in Bicycling? He's an ex Olympic cyclist and lawyer specializing in cyclists' rights. Looks like he's easy to reach through the internets. This isn't the type of riding/accident stuff he probably usually addresses, but it's a potentially significant warranty issue and may attract his attention. Worth an email to Bicycling and/or him maybe.

Last edited by dan emery on 9/19/14 5:55 AM; edited 1 time in total

9/19/14 4:47 AM

Question:

Is there any definition of the measuring lifetime in the warranty?


If you do have the original warranty, it might be worth posting.

9/19/14 5:17 AM

A reading by a reasonable person would seem to indicate that a lifetime warranty is more than 5 years. You even have it in writing that they made it a policy to void lifetime warranties after 5 years. Small claims court was made for this type of case. It's cheap, no lawyer is expected, and you can do it locally. CC would either have to defend themselves or lose by default. Even if you have the frame repaired you could sue them for the cost of the repair.

I would not purchase a new Merlin from them for 2 reasons: I would not give them any more money out of principal, and Lynskey has better deals right now on equivalent level frames.

9/19/14 7:15 AM

The actual wording of the warranty as listed in the Merlin owner's manual can be found at the following link:

https://picasaweb.google.com/101429222507176733719/MerlinWarranty?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCI-r3pK8gJCKuQE&feat=directlink

Upon reading it again, I'll have to admit it does say "Limited" in the top heading and there is language in the first and fourth paragraphs that attempts to set a baseline to distinguish defects in material and workmanship from normal wear and tear.

Not sure of the potential to fare well here. Maybe Dan and Andy can comment?

I don't like the business practice to have sales staff tout a product as having a lifetime warranty and then find out not really, but what is reasonable wrt wear & tear? I estimate I have about 14,000 miles on the frame in 7 years, so it doesn't qualify as hardly used.

Half of me wants to stick it to them, but I also have to consider how much aggravation and ill feeling do I want in my life for an issue could drag on for weeks and that I may not win. OTOH, I can meet Albert Bold next week, and for $150 and a tank of gas, have the frame I liked a lot built up again and back on the road by next weekend.

decisions, decisions.

9/19/14 7:30 AM

quote:

---

I don't like the business practice to have sales staff tout a product as having a lifetime warranty and then find out not really, but what is reasonable wrt wear & tear? I estimate I have about 14,000 miles on the frame in 7 years, so it doesn't qualify as hardly used.

---

9/19/14 8:14 AM

I think you should win, but I don't know how to get to that result efficiently.

I think "lifetime" simply means without limit, contrasted to the 3 years on the alu frame, etc. The "Limited" in the title means nothing. If normal wear and tear means the frame falls apart in 7 years, why do they have a lifetime warranty? I think normal wear and tear means frame scratches or something. And Kerry and Dave B could be witnesses A and B (just as an example, I'm not volunteering them:))

Wear and tear is standard bs for trying to evade liability for auto defects. I had a Saab with a clearly defective ignition module, and the company said "wear and tear" until enough complaints were filed that a federal consumer agency forced a recall.

I think a judge or jury would find in your favor, but you likely can't get there in any cost effective way (may have trouble reaching an out of state defendant through small claims court, but I'm no expert). That's one reason I pay little attention to bicycle warranties - if the company won't do the right thing, what's the remedy?

Nonetheless I'd think it's at least worth some more nasty emails, attaching the warranty (and I'd include ABG, they may still have primary liability), and maybe contacting a bicycle lawyer like Mionske (who might sees some value in publicizing the issue).

9/19/14 10:58 AM

I would note that the warranty is issued by "Merlin/ American Bicycle Group, LLC ". Unless CC can produce a document (probably part of the asset purchase agreement) that specifically states that the liability of the seller is not being transferred (usually it will be treated as worth a certain amount of money) then I suspect CC has purchased the warranty liability from ABG.

Again, this is all bullshit and not legal advice, etc., etc., etc. Also note the "some states do not permit limitations" language in the warranty. Find out if yours is one of those...

9/19/14 4:25 PM

I put in an inquiry on Merlin's website and asked how long I could expect a ti frame to last under normal usage conditions (5k miles per year). I received this prompt response:


>>Hi!

Thank you for contacting Competitive Cyclist!

One of titanium's best qualities is its durability. I wouldn't expect you needing to replace the frame unless you became tired of it at some point. Ti is silky smooth and really takes the ride quality of steel and couples it with the lightness of aluminum and the durability, of, well, titanium.<<

These guys are blowing smoke out their a$$.

9/19/14 4:38 PM

My lowly Steel Strong has over 30k on it. It still looks near new as well and preforming the same as always.

If it cracked, Carl would either choose to repair of replace it. Powder coated, guess which one is likely.


I think I would not get it welded just yet, unless you decide you are done with their BS. But having typed that, why would you want to keep looking at the thing under you if that is the case. Perspective being everything and all...

9/19/14 7:11 PM

I vote publicizing it on the internet! (with a bit of notice to CC)

9/19/14 7:14 PM

They speak out of both sides of their mouth. What scumbags.