1/3/14 9:37 AM

We got Nancy a set of Nokian WRG2 tires. Nokian calls these all season tires as the tread is half winter and half summer. I'm stunned at how good these tires are. They ride cushy, are round and straight, required liitle weight to balance. We got some snow last night and they have extremely good grip. I'm gonna buy Hakka's next winter for my vehicle. hakkapellita's are their full on winter tire. When my stock all seasons wear out I'll buy WRG2's for those rims. First good tires I've had in years.

Last edited by dfcas on 1/3/14 10:06 AM; edited 1 time in total

1/3/14 9:54 AM

I use Hakkas both on my car for winter and (studded) on my bike. Awesome both.

Have not used the WRG2s, but from following a Saab Board for years, the reports are all excellent (from a pretty picky group).

1/3/14 10:05 AM

It seems that Nokian may be getting out of the bike tire business, but a company called Suomi is taking it over. It's also a Finnish company, and the models are the same.

1/3/14 10:10 AM

Well then I may have to use the same rule for winter bike tires that I learned for chainsaws: "Any make is OK, as long as it's Scandinavian."

Actually the studded tires last forever and I'm not sure I'll ever wear out the ones I have...

1/3/14 11:17 AM

I have noticed the studded tire use here is Prolific. But I have hardly seen road conditions that warrant them. Best I can figure a lot folks might hit the MTNs perhaps.

I was thinking about some sipped tires for the AWD Equinox. But honestly the only situation I have seen with the vehicle tire wise I can criticize is the closed siped/edges and standing water. But I think the weather here is/has been different than previous trends. The sun for example is blasting in the back, something that did not happen at all the first winter I was here.

I did put some Good Year Aqua Tread tires on a FWD Bonneville with traction Control in NJ. The standing water performance was incredible. And I drove 4WD trucks for 15 years prior. Snow also, that Bonneville with the Wet specific tires was better than all of my 4WD trucks..

1/3/14 7:16 PM

Expensive tires are a pleasure to drive on compared to budget rubber, so best to keep close tabs on them.

Although I haven't bought the premium hoops in years (my last full set of 4 cost $151 out the door, installed), I learnt the value of keeping close tabs on tire pressure and tread wear profiles of the front and rear tires, so that with such familiarity with my older, long-held vehicle I am able to effect a completely-even tread wear over time, while helping gas mileage and getting at least a consistent ride quality.

I rotate the tires just once in their lifetime (full-cross), which gives the steering a very vague feel of on-center for a couple hundred miles, but other than that my Kelly (US-made) tires are doing very well just past the half-way point, almost 30k miles so far.
Door-sill recommended tire pressure is 29F/35R (it's a 2750lb truck), but my optimum top-up pressure turns out to be 31F/29R with the ~200lb 'glass shell and optional (LOL) step bumper. I allow only 2psi drop (~4-5 wks) before re-topping, and, btw, I buy passenger car tires instead of truck tires (same 205/75-R14 size), for a quieter ride, lower price and lower rolling resistance.

I drove this truck for a couple of years in NY after buying it new, and at least got by in the snow since it's a 5-speed manual.
And thankfully I haven't had to think about driving in snow in the 22 years since leaving White Plains, where I heard they just got piled on by a blizzard.

1/3/14 7:58 PM

quote:

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company called Suomi is taking it over. It's also a Finnish company

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1/3/14 7:59 PM

We like Michelins regarding premium tires. The 2011 Equinox original Michelins had exactly 1/2 the tread left @ 45k. We got a cut in one and where going to have to replace all four due to the AWD. If you'll recall that thread. But the acquisition of the 2013 Equinox, the way it occurred i mean made it not our problem.

But it makes the point if you have AWD. If you need one expensive tire, you may well need all of them. But then of course the 3 left that are still good someone will buy I figure used.

1/5/14 12:19 PM

In winter conditions, there is no substitute for dedicated winter (snow) tires, period. However, despite that so many, too many ignoramae dispute this, it is just that matter of fact. And where allowed, I still rate studded vastly above studless via years of experience on both.
Drive system (2W - 4W) is of no real relevance. It's all about the tire. I will say that a 4WD drivetrain combined with studded snow tires takes top honors. But a 2WD system with snow tires runs circles around any 4WD system with "all-season" (summer) tires. And for those who avoid buying snow tires due to the "waste of money - my "all-season's are "just as good....." attitude, how much is your deductible alone, just your deductible for starters versus the cost of snow tires divided many times by two, if not 1.5, as many can get two winters out of a set of snow tires? Just askin'. Think. About. It.
I toss snow tires when they reach essential 1/2 tread depth. I want grip, always. I value my life AND that of yours.

1/5/14 1:01 PM

In loose grip conditions, it is about self cleaning ability. Fresh bite each revolution VS a clogged with media tread. And then of course compound and temperature.

If the winters were being more extreme here, I'd probably pay to get the existing tires sipped [sp?]

If it was ice a lot, studs. But each winter here has diminished in severity since we have been here. How long this trend continues time will tell.

I used to use non studded snow on the back of a 2WD Dodge Pickup in jersey. Dakota had a posi traction diff. I made a baffle that sectioned off the front of the bed to the front of the wheel wells that got filled with bagged sand for the duration. Season over, sand got redistributed on the ground. ;)

One of the best winter/snow vehicles I have driven.
And I had a lot of 4WD truck for like 10 years when I was a contractor. Almost as good as that Bonneville.

Tires are everything, I agree..

1/5/14 3:01 PM

"Drive system (2W - 4W) is of no real relevance. It's all about the tire. I will say that a 4WD drivetrain combined with studded snow tires takes top honors. But a 2WD system with snow tires runs circles around any 4WD system with "all-season" (summer) tires."

Nonsense. There are plenty of circumstances in a front wheel drive vehicle (or rear for that matter) where you will not find traction for the drive wheels, so go nowhere, tire type be damned. An AWD system will keep you moving in those instances, even with mediocre tires.

This video was enlightening and no 2 wheel drive vehicle with good tires is even going to be tested in this scenario.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwr5_Sd47Us[/quote]

1/5/14 4:49 PM

I don't need any VID myself. I have been driving for like 40 years and had a lot of cars, trucks, and tires.

Self cleaning tread to me made the difference every time when traction was critical. yada

1/6/14 1:22 AM

That vid's announcer seemed to be saying (@9:18) that the Subaru having so much weight on the rear wheels would make it harder or impossible for the single (rear) wheel with traction to get the car moving up the ramp, but intuitively it seems like more weight over the rear driving wheels would only help out, even if the bigger challenge was if the 4wd system could deliver enough torque to the one wheel (on the rear) that had traction.

Of course this was a Subaru ad so they got it to work, and ad writers don't always really know much about what they are talking about.

Reminds me of Bicycling magazine in this sense, where I presume that the writers filch their blathering in pieces from 'net discussions that other, informed individuals, are routinely having publicly.

1/6/14 7:31 AM

All the advertising blather aside, what the video clearly shows is what happens when you have no traction on the rear or front axle. In those scenarios, AWD is the only thing that keeps you moving, even with mediocre tires.

There's no doubt that half the battle is keeping traction in the first place and you certainly need good tires for that. The SubaruForester.org forum is full of posts about how the first major and good change you can make to the vehicle is to replace the stock all seasons with a set of Blizzaks or equivalent.

But to state that a good tire on a 2WD vehicle is better then 4WD with mediocre tires ?. Hardly. I've been driving for 41 years. Commuting miles mostly and am probably up around 700,000 miles driven. My wife and I have owned 15 vehicles in 32 years with about half as 2WD, typically front drive, the others as 4WD. Our experiences have found the AWD vehicles to be far safer and providing better traction in all conditions then anything else we've owned. Which is why we are on Subaru's #3 & 4.

SB

1/6/14 11:38 AM

"But to state that a good tire on a 2WD vehicle is better then 4WD with mediocre tires ?."

I don't know if the 4WD pickup/burbins have the traction control, assume they do have systems for some time now. I have not had a 4WD truck newer than an 80s model. I had HD 250/350 4WD pickups and a few K-20 Burbins as far as my personal experience.

That said, the 2WD/FWD Bonneville with traction control with the Goodyear Aquatreads in snow was so much better than the 4WD trucks by a long shot. Zero slipping and sliding, whereas the trucks went forward well enough. But there was notable slipping and sliding comparatively. Bonneville; #1 I've driven in winter conditions.

The new AWD Equinox with hwy Michelins has only had a few slips when the road have been bad, and I actually got it to slip second-tarily by goosing the gas in an attempt to see if it would get wonky. So the computers control on the system does what it is supposed to. But we have not had serious snow, only 6" at the worst and I intentionally went out to see how the car would handle it and was trying hard to get it to break loose, it hooks up incredibly even on snow in a u-turn goosing the gas. With summer hwy tires, can only imagine how some Blizzak or similar might respond.

All my 4wd trucks had All Terrain BFGs which where self cleaning, but not overly aggressive tread. One S-10 4WD we had had Mud Terrains, that was better except it high centered easily, something the full size trucks never did.

So, not only does my experience show me "that a good tire on a 2WD vehicle is better then 4WD with mediocre tires", the 2WD Dakaota with the full on snows and Posi rear and my weight/baffle was better than the 4wd trucks with good tires. I am talking about driving on pavement/roads in and during storms. It was my goto the ski area vehicle when I was a volunteer for 3 years and skied 50+ days a year. I got there when a lot of others did not make it to the slopes. Best volunteer days, having the MTN to myself for the shift. Not much work, just a lot of fresh snow and my own trails all night. ;)

The Dakota's front would wander in deeper stuff, but i never put shows on the front. I have to think snows up there would have helped that. #2 I've driven in winter conditions. Especially with regards to traction.

The absolute worst ones I have driven were every Econoline 250/350 Van I had, again 70-80s models. Not had one with a Posi Diff., but snows, weight helped minimally. One was a 460 CI V8 club wagon, long 138" WB extended body et al, and sheer weight only helped a little. ;)

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1/6/14 11:53 AM

So to speak. Ive been driving 47 years. For winter driving I would rather have a FWD with good snow tires than an AWD with all-seasons. I drove a FWD Saab with good snows for 10 years, then I got an A4 Quattro, which came with all-seasons. The salesman said "you'll never need snows," and I didn't believe it, but thought I'd give it a try. After the first drive in snow I put snow tires on. It was OK with the all-seasons, but not as good as the Saab with snows. This applies to normal road driving in snow and ice, not offroad, etc.

1/6/14 12:29 PM

Anybody else notice the "curb" at the bottom of the ramp in the video? He jammed the other brands against the curb to make it harder to get up on the ramp. If he would have backed off a few inches and allowed the non subaru cars to move before the curb, all would have climbed right up.

Pickup trucks are top heavy, clumsy, have poor weight distribution and handle poorly compared to a car. Also, I think the soft suspension of a car is better.

I bought a FWD Honda Element, put new winter tires on it, and went nowhere. The worst I've ever had, including a V-8 Mustang. The Element had little overhang in the front, and most of the weight was on the rear. I traded it for an AWD Element.

The problem around here is people think the laws of physics don't apply to AWD or 4WD. They have bald tires and wreck them more than the 2 wheel drive cars, as they don't respect the road conditions.

Me, I'll take AWD and winter tires.

1/6/14 12:39 PM

I think it's hit and miss with different types of AWD / 4WD and 2WD. My Isuzu Trooper was great but also had BF Goodrich off-road tires, so snow driving was not an issue. It also had part-time 4WD so I only got to use it when there was a few inches of the white stuff. My wife had 2 Nissan Pathfinders that were the worst. One had so-called "Full Time" 4WD but had the worst case of torque steer on the rear end that made driving in snow painful. I can also well recall two friends that have owned 4WD pickups and found them to be terrible in snow due to no weight over the rear wheels.

I think I've been spoiled by driving Subaru's for the past 12 years and am used to one of the better AWD systems, thus never felt the need for other then all season tires. Don't want to spend the money on winter tires either.

Last edited by Steve B. on 1/6/14 1:22 PM; edited 1 time in total

1/6/14 1:06 PM

My wife had a Subaru and she put snows on that too. Each to their own.

1/6/14 1:08 PM

We've owned two Legacys and an Impreza. Our two most recent purchases were Honda CR-Vs. With the CR-Vs, there is a definite lag to AWD engaging. You feel the front wheels starting to spin before the rears kick in. It works, but it doesn't give you a confident feeling. With the Subarus there was no noticeable spin at any wheel (assuming you weren't on black ice), you just went.

The only reason we moved from Subaru to Honda was the quality of the local dealerships. The Subaru dealer had a classic salesman's showroom with all the back and forth bargaining and "I've got to run this by my sales manager." Also the service department was very sexist. My wife would question them about the service they were recommending and she would get the "Don't you worry your pretty head about it Ma'am, just do what we tell you to." The Honda dealer has a no-haggle price policy, yet we found them competitive with other local dealers. Their service reps are polite, knowledgable, and not condescending.

In terms of the AWD/FWD/snow tire discussion, I've had FWD cars with good snow tires that had difficulties at times. None of our AWD cars have had snows, just all season tires, and I've never had a problem. I don't offer that as conclusive evidence as every situation is slightly different in terms of snow depth, iciness, and other road conditions. But I'd rather have AWD with the fall back of adding snows if conditions are really projected to be bad.

1/6/14 3:00 PM

" rather have AWD with the fall back of adding snows if conditions are really projected to be bad."

That is our position on the Equinox / tires. Maybe we will remain lucky here in the PNW and both the car with highway tires and bike with GP4 All Seasons will continue to get outside use. ;)

I never did a 30 mile bike ride in January that I recall before the other day. Happy happy happy....

1/6/14 4:40 PM

"My wife had a Subaru and she put snows on that too. Each to their own."

Yeah, but you live in Maine, where it snow's all the time and then it's blackfly season.

I'm on Long Island, with no hills in sight. I commute to Brooklyn, also as flat as can be, thus have never needed winter tires. I would dearly love to be able to afford a good set of the Blizzaks or Nokia's, but have other priorities (heat, electricity, mortgage, etc...) maybe next year as a good set of tires are truly half the battle and you CAN sometimes get away with front WD if you have good winter tires and are not trying to plow thru a foot. AWD does instill confidence though as well as stupidity judging by the way people drive.

1/6/14 10:38 PM

A lot depends on the car, it seems, and you can't always predict.

I've driven a bunch of Jeep Cherokees over the years, and the best tires ever were probably all season Nokian Vaativas, but they did well on many others, including the relatively cheap Firestone Winterforce tires. Encouraged by this, I put a set of four on my Ford Focus wagon, and it utterly sucks. My wife's Volvo V-40, just about the same size but a bit heavier, is great on snow, but the light-engined Focus just doesn't hack it.

Some years ago i had a Honda Civic hatchback, and left the all season tires on it one winter. It was good even on glare ice. When the all season tires wore out I put Nokians on it, and I think it could have climbed trees. Two wheel drive is quite enough if you have the right vehicle and studded Hakkapellittaas (or however you spell the things).

Longer ago than that I had one of the first Saab 99's. I never bothered with snow tires for this. I once followed my wife home during a blizzard. She was driving the Saab with some no-name rain tires on it, and I was in a Scout with snow tires and four wheel drive. She had an easier time than I did. The only thing that would stop the Saab was snow depth.

My preference in general is part time four wheel drive and snow tires, My current ride is a Jeep Liberty with Cooper Discoverer snow tires and part time 4WD. But the right 2WD vehicle with the right tires can do very well.

1/6/14 10:52 PM

My little Del Sol would probably be horrible. I would not even take it out in ice/slush/snow. It has excellent tires too, good in rain with open outer sipes. But it is SO light I can't even make a right from a stop in the wet without wheel slippage unless ultra conservative on the technique.

1/7/14 6:37 AM

...and while I would never go without snow tires, I can honestly say that I have never been in a winter weather situation where AWD or 4WD would have been of any benefit. I've also never owned a vehicle with ABS brakes or traction control and I haven't missed them, either. Frankly, for most people, these things are just crutches that they perceive as eliminating their need to actually learn how to drive in slippery conditions. It's interesting that car companies keep adding more of this stuff, yet accident rates remain the same.

As for tires, I'm running Nokian Hakka Rs, which are amazing tires. They provide the same level of traction as the older versions I've used, but are pretty much as quiet as summer rubber and handle almost as well. In the summer, I run Nokian Entyres, which are not as smooth riding as some others I've had, but they're quiet, they handle well and seem to be really durable.

Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 1/8/14 6:14 AM; edited 1 time in total