11/6/13 1:39 PM

Local shop has spokes [14/15s] a little shorter than I was looking for, but say 15mm instead of 12mm nipples will resolve this. Only ever used 12mm nips, going with alloy, discuss?

Why can't I get a box of 100 spokes cheaper than what I can get them for at the LBS? Guess 100 is not quantity when it comes to spokes.

Semi Local wheel builder had Sapim's for same price as the LBS's DTs. I have used DTs and Wheelsmiths in the sets I have built/rebuilt so far. Are Sapims any better for the same price and longer travel? ;)

Same price locally is 1.00 per with a brass nip.
eBay box 100 DT 14/15 with brass nip 88.00, so a touch cheaper...

11/6/13 3:35 PM

I think that the better brands of spokes are pretty good at protecting their price support, whatever that takes. I just don't see what I would consider wholesale pricing anymore even online.

I sure wouldn't use alloy nipples to extend spokes, since the spoke end should at least come up flush with the bottom of the slot when using alloy spokes, or breakage eventually results.

11/6/13 3:41 PM

If the spokes are too short, such that the thread doesn't go to the head of the nipple, then the head of the nipple can eventually break off, because it doesn't have the additional support of the spoke threads. It doesn't happen often, but I have seen it happen with spokes that were too short.

I normally use Sapim spokes. I used to use DT as well, but stopped using them a few years back when they lengthened the bend on the end of the spoke to make machine building easier, and this caused the spokes to break more frequently. They recognised the problem and went part way back to the previous design, but I haven't used them since. I normally use Sapim Race (2.0/1.8/2.0) spokes, and I normally get them from either http://www.dotbike.com/c/40/spokes (who sell them in boxes of 100), or http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/WSSARA/sapim_race_spoke , who sell them by the spoke, and seem to have a special at the moment, where depending on the length you want you can get them for less than 50c per spoke.

11/6/13 4:41 PM

Alchemy Bicycle Works will sell nipples (and spokes) in any quantities you want. Very nice people to work with and also helpful with advice.

I've been very happy with Sapim Lasers, that's all I build with now. I found Wheelsmith QC to better than DT, judging by a batch I received with very uneven lengths. I would not hesitate to use any of the three however.

11/6/13 5:47 PM

Are all 7075 Alloy nips created equal ?

11/6/13 6:36 PM

I've built up a few wheels with the Sapim Race spokes, and one with Lasers (14/17). Before that it was a few wheels with either DT or Wheelsmith spokes. I didn't notice any big difference in quality between the spokes.

If you are looking for a deal on the Sapim Race, then give Dan's Comp a try at $.40 a spoke including nipples

http://www.danscomp.com/products-PARTS/435915/Sapim_Stainless_Double_Butted_Spoke.html

I ordered a few wheels worth from them recently and have made it through about 1.5 of the wheelbuilds so far. It seems like they stock fewer sizes and then just cut to length. It looks a little weird with the threaded end being relatively shorter than the head end, but the threads seemed cleanly cut and I haven't had any problems yet.

11/6/13 7:14 PM

.40, Bingo.

thanks for that BK!

11/7/13 6:23 AM

...also turns around orders quickly. They're my go-to source for spokes.

I've used their alloy nipples and while they work well, they only offer them in 14 mm and I prefer to work with 12mm nipples. Sapim alloy nipples are nice, but I'm not that wild about DT "self locking" nipples.

11/7/13 1:25 PM

"...It seems like they stock fewer sizes and then just cut to length..."

This makes a lot of sense, especially at the shop level where maintaining a large inventory of spoke lengths is prohibitively expensive.

I buy spokes from wheelbuilders who are moving on, and can select boxes of plenty-long spokes that I can cut and turn to length using the Phil machines at two of our local shops. A large inventory of spokes is a burden to keep around the house, and shops of course also have limited space for such an inventory, which must be managed by a responsible employee. No wonder that the retail price of spokes can be so lofty.

11/8/13 4:27 PM

"It seems like they stock fewer sizes and then just cut to length"


They pic the one closest to the length you need that does not make the butt disappear it seems.

I also got a coupon for free shipping.

Thanks again BK. I ordered enough in different lengths
I need to do a few projects. That is what I call a great cost factor.

Anyone on the 7075 alloy nipples question have a comment? Are they all created equal?

11/8/13 6:21 PM

I have nothing to base this on, but long alloy nips would scare me. I have used 16mm brass with no problem, and would go that way again.

11/8/13 6:27 PM

I have no fear of alloy nips. I have had 2-3 collapse on old wheels total, but simply replaced them.

With the sets of Open Pro wheels over 10 years old I converted to A23 rims I re-used the alloy nipples.

The trick I think is to have the mating surfaces lubed and a non worn spoke wrench for the tweaking. I lost one nipple on each of those sets, and recently lost one one an Ultegra rim swap. Toasted Open Pro with one on the OPs I pulled for the A23 upgrade.

My two set where built with spoke prep which may have helped. ;) The Ultegra repair appeared to have had prep used also.

11/9/13 9:46 AM

Frankly, I don't know what alloy is used in the nipples I've built with, but the all seem to hold up OK. For me, it's more a matter of how they handle when building than anything else.

I found the self-locking "feature" on DTs to not work well, as they tell you not to lubricate them, which causes extra friction when building. This made tensioning and truing more difficult. Now I know why the person who gave them to me did so. ;-)

I like to use 12mm nipples for one reason; when I do the initial lacing, I run the nipples on until the threads are just hidden to give me an even starting point. With longer nipples, it takes several more turns after that before any tension is achieved. Shorter nipples are faster to build with, since there's 2mm less to take up. I recently made some new nipple threaders with various length center pins, so this may become a moot point, as I won't be using the threads as a gauge anymore.

I have yet to find any difference in durability of alloy nips, but it's important that the spokes come up to the end of the head.

Despite the same nominal sizes on nipples and wrenches, there is significant variation in how they fit. Some nipples do fit certain spoke wrenches better than others and getting a perfect fit is especially important with alloy nipples. For that reason, I have a collection of spoke wrenches of various brands and vintages (yes, they varied over time). At the start of a build, I determine the best wrench for the nipples I'm using and go with it.

I have seen some variation in size with the cheaper alloy nipples, which can make getting a perfect wrench fit difficult. This does not seem to be an issue with the better quality nipples (DT, Sapim, etc.)

11/10/13 4:08 PM

"...I like to use 12mm nipples for one reason; when I do the initial lacing, I run the nipples on until the threads are just hidden to give me an even starting point. With longer nipples, it takes several more turns after that before any tension is achieved. Shorter nipples are faster to build with, since there's 2mm less to take up. I recently made some new nipple threaders with various length center pins, so this may become a moot point, as I won't be using the threads as a gauge anymore..."

That's a good idea to have nipple spinners on hand with different lengths of centering pins.
And wouldn't it be cool to have one with an adjustable-length pin?
BTW, how did you make yours? I've used thin, 99-cent flat-blade screwdrivers with a round shank, with the tips then carved to order, but it was kind of laborious.

For spoke wrenches, my forged VAR wrench gets the best grip of all the one's I've ever had, and has never shown a hint of wear. Forged and hardened I guess. Shown at left, below.

11/10/13 7:39 PM

I Just use the threaded ends of old spokes with brass nipples threaded on, exposing the amount of thread I want, and held in place with Loctite 271 so they won't move. I chuck the one I need in a pin vise so I can twist it easily. To insert a nipple:

- I thread it on the spinner head first
- I insert it into the rim
- I spin the nipple on until it stops
- I grab it and back the spinner out

This isn't the same as using a nipple driver, but it works just as well and I never drop a nipple into the rim accidentally, since they're captive on the spinner. They're so cheap and easy to make that I can have a variety of lengths or custom-make one at any time.

I've never had any wear issues with spoke wrenches either. I have some Park wrenches that date back to the late '70s that I still use, as they fit slightly differently than the current versions. I also have wrenches from 2 or 3 other companies, which also fit slightly differently. Of course, one must have the specialty wrenches for Shimano and Mavic wheels, too.

11/10/13 8:38 PM

I do what Brian does as well, but I use a spoke cut and a loop bent on the end total length of 5" or so.

I have a few other tools made from spokes..

11/15/13 3:48 PM

I guess I should have asked, but the included brass nipples which came in the order are 15mm. Doubtful I will use them. 12mm would have been better for any wheel building I do.

For the ENO build I got 7075 Alloy 12mm nip. Just got done tension and stress relieving and ready to dial/tune. Strong will roll as a SS today. ;)

Purpose of post is you should ask when ordering, no dis on DansComp.

EDIT:
Apparently they only have these [for brass nips] which are 16mm it turns out. You can pay 19 cents each to upgrade to 13mm Alloys. I paid .1933 shipped for the 7075 alloys @ 100 pieces. So free brass nip anyway. Not sure they would ever get used though...

Maybe I am a dweeb, but long nips look dorky to me. I do not mind the brass, in fact would use them for drive side rear builds if they where 12/13mm.

Last edited by Sparky on 11/15/13 7:08 PM; edited 1 time in total

11/15/13 6:56 PM

They're pointless, as they add weight with no benefit whatsoever.

11/17/13 4:06 PM

The Var spoke key is definitely the best if you're using aluminium nipples, as it grips three of the four flats on the nipple rather than just two of the flats that most of the other spoke keys grip. The other spoke key I have with the same sort of three sided grip design is the Spokey, which is much lighter, being mostly plastic, and I usually carry in one of those in my toolkit on the bike.

11/19/13 6:32 AM

...3 sided spoke wrenches.