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Thinking about a tandem again
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/15/13 2:47 PM

Thinking about a tandem again

We did 26ers in the past. So a road tandem would be what we are after. Thinking maybe a used T200, or there seem to be some Burlys used around here, Duets mostly.

Any helpful comments appreciated.

Things like ceramic rims for good cantis, etc. Doubt discs will come into the picture for the price point. And I am reading online how the right cantis set up with god mech advantage with good salmon kool stop pads is good??

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

9/15/13 3:12 PM

The concern is not the ability to stop, but if the terrain means you will put too much heat into the rims and blow a tire off. That said, cantis do suck...

If you have a drag brake it can go a long way to reduce the heat you put into the rims. I assume you will do big climbs and descents? If you aren't going to do descents that require a lot of braking, then of course rim brakes are fine.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/15/13 3:45 PM

yeah, i read a few posts about a bar con connected to a drum for drag, etc.

Is discs fading an issue in same situation? And would you be frequently changing pads with discs only?

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

9/15/13 4:53 PM

There have been reports of BB7 overheating and fading in extreme situations. I've heard of the knobs melting off them. They won't take as much heat as a drum, but they can take a lot, and remove the worry about tire blowoff. Reports were no long term dame after overheating a disc.

I've had 4 tandems with the same disc brakes and never replaced a pad, but I never stressed them much. The hills around here,while steep, tend to be short.

My favorite setup was a rim brake in front and a disc in the rear. I took the front wheel off for transport, and it was easier to remount with a v brake. I used the rear brake a lot more than you do on a single, to put the heat there.

Older Cannondales are not too expensive now, and everything since 2001 or so has disc mounts. Good solid tandem frames. Some friends won the masters nationals on a C/dale.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/15/13 6:34 PM

"Older Cannondales are not too expensive now"

Is this a place where I want steel? I remember the 26er Cannondale with 1.5 inverted tires pumped up was pretty brutal for the stoker on the bumps. We got some 2.0 same inverted tires and it helped, but helped it be even more sluggish too.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

9/16/13 1:31 AM

We've been up and down some pretty big descents on tandems equipped with only rim brakes. The biggest I can remember coming down so equipped was about 1000m vertical drop over about 17km. That was unloaded day riding though, and the two of us only weigh about 250 lbs combined. If you're a heavy team or carrying a load, then for big descents I'd say that something beyond rim brakes only is required, or else you stop every so often to admire the view...

On our old touring tandem back in the 1980s we had Mafac cantis plus an Arai drum brake controlled by a brake lever on the stokers handlebars. On long mountain descents with a full camping load, I would use the rim brakes until they started to fade, then get the stoker to put the Arai on for a minute or two while the rims and brake blocks cooled, then let the Arai off and go back to the rim brakes. That mostly worked pretty well, but on one one particularly steep and winding descent in the Snowy Mountains, I could smell burning part way down the descent, and decided that we had better give everything a rest. When we finally came to a halt and dismounted, there was smoke coming out of the drum brake. It had heated up so much that the grease had melted and run out onto the brake shoes.

We always use out of sync cranks for touring. For racing we have them in sync, as it makes it a lot easier to sprint out of the saddle, but for touring, particularly when loaded, I think it's a lot better to have them 90 degrees apart:

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

9/16/13 12:11 PM

We tried a steel Burly the LBS owner had. It wobbled on start up and seemed to go in several directions at once. Neither of us liked it.

This led me to buy an aluminum Cannondale without a test ride. It was much more solid, no wobble, and handled much better. We were a 340 lb team.

I decided that if it was too harsh, we would put on suspension seatposts, but I was sure I did not want a wobbly tandem. It was fine for the captain, the stoker need the sus seatpost.

I would check to make sure that the Trek 100/200 does not use a 1 inch steerer tube. If you need to replace the fork you may have to have a custom made.

So my very limited experience with steel tandem was not good.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

9/16/13 12:12 PM

Note that a Cannondale tandem frame weighs ~10 pounds, so an older steel frame may weigh 15 lbs.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/16/13 12:32 PM

I read the duet in it's early iteration/tube cfg was pretty bad. Newer bigger tubes OK. As usual, the budget has increased 50-100% already. ;)

I am on a few, used IBIS looking the best so far. It is 10 speed, so not sure if it was a comp revamp, or newer [as compared to the T50-200s I am spying as well].

It literately looks like new. Need to pin point sizes.

Question, giving the extreme rearward CG is it reasonable to assume a long [LONG!] capt stem and seeing the front axle well behind the bars will be a more forgivable than a single. My old Trek-in-CX-Stein with the crazy long WB and chain stays handled well with a similarly long stem and long reach bars. And seeing the front hub totally behind the bars FWIW. [not when in the drop though]

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

9/16/13 1:53 PM

I only have experience with a 10-11 stem on the tandems I've had. I would think that stem length on a tandem is much less critical than on a single as far as handling is concerned.

All The Ibii are older and I believe somewhat sought after. They made mostly 26" wheeled road bikes but I think they also had a 700c model. Probably a nice ride.

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sandiway
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 4902
Location: back in Tucson

9/16/13 1:59 PM

where?

Sparky, where online are you finding these tandems?

That is a huge drop from the saddle to the bars for the captain...

Sandiway

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/16/13 2:05 PM

"That is a huge drop from the saddle to the bars for the captain... "


looks about right to me. ;)

"Sparky, where online are you finding these tandems?"

Well, Bend Oregon is the Tandem capitol of the PNW ya know. ;)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/16/13 3:15 PM

Just got off the phone with the IBIS owner. Ridden about 12 times. 10 speed 105 STI, and a granny ala 110 bolt circle. He is going to call me later when he gets home to see details, standovers, the wheels etc. We talked about his Guzzi he just picked up yesterday and MCs more than bicycles. ;) It has the drum mount on the chain stay and the port side hub thread for the drum as well.

Anyway, look like his inseam is within 1/4" of mine and his wife same height as mine. Only bad part is he lives near my kids, so a Spokane trip seems in my immediate future.

The IBIS painted to match stems are a nice touch. I pray they work for us. Shame to take them off...

Question is how much is too much $$??

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

9/16/13 5:02 PM

Stem length etc

I can't begin to evaluate CG info etc., but I've used a 150 stem on a tandem for years with no problems I can discern. My standard road bike position also has long had me looking at he hub well behind the bars. I think I paid attention to that "rule" for 10 minutes in 1973.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/16/13 6:05 PM

Capt TT short than I would like [i think] The stem is a 140, the saddle tip to bar is in my range.

Again, how $$ much is too much you think?

Call determined it is 9 speed with 105 STIs. Tandem is as pictured WB/holder, pump, 6500 SPD front, reg pedals rear. The original tire are on it and show the use. Hubs/wheels 40 spoke World Class hubs/mavic, which are pretty much boutique for the time period, no?

Going to get it tomorrow...


Original rear tire:

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2625
Location: Canberra, Australia

9/16/13 6:07 PM

If you look at the photo of the touring tandem in my previous post, that bike has a 140mm stem. No problems with the steering that I ever discerned. And as far as centre of gravity goes, on a tandem you just don't worry about it. With the extra wheelbase and stokers weight at the rear, it's completely impossible to brake hard enough to go over the handlebars (which I've done once or twice on my own bikes in accident avoidance situations).

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

9/16/13 8:45 PM

Value

I'm not very good at pricing bikes since I usually pay too much, but I think $1500 is the upper limit for the Ibis and $1000 is the lower. The ability to use disc brakes makes a tandem frame/fork more valuable to me, but being an Ibis adds value.

I prefer a long captains top tube on a tandem so I can run the eccentric in the forward half of the shell, and give the stoker more room. You might measure the bottom brackets c-c to see how long the stoker top tube is. If she is tall, you don't want a short stoker top tube. 28.5 inches is about as long as stock bikes get now. Some older tandems had 27" or shorter stoker top tubes, and most stokers complain they want more room.

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

9/16/13 8:53 PM

I've been reading a tandem forum for years and many people complain about short stoker top tubes. It is almost universal in custom tandems that they get a longer stoker top tube.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/16/13 9:17 PM

I am afraid it will be too long a stoker cockpit and the nice IBIS Stem which is not adjustable.. etc. The standover back there is at the edge, but i am thinking with me doing the balancing act for the most part it will pass. I think it also would be worth more here in PDX frankly.

We are @ $1350.00. I think is not the deal I usually like. But if I have fit and condition I have no issue with $100-200.00. And he is into MC mode and not even riding his bikes anymore at all. Maybe he will sweeten things with gear he won't use in addition to SPDs/pump/bottles etc.

I sure wish it already had the drum, I will have to invest a little there...

bikepedia shows it with a less level of component to what it is. He said he got it new, so it was made to order or someone had it made to order and did not pick it up and they got it that way, postulate postulate... He was not very bicycle literate frankly.

It has the cool, albeit bypassed due to v-brakes, hand job rear brake canti cable stop. Not sure if i cna make out the toe-jamb pump peg or not. Apparently these are some of the aspects that make for some desirability.

-Frame & Fork
-Frame Construction TIG-welded steel
-Frame Tubing Material Tange Prestige chromoly, custom-butted
-Fork Brand & Model Tange Super Size Tandem
-Fork Material Tange Tandem chromoly, butted, unicrown crown

rest of the bikepedia page: http://www.bikepedia.com/quickbike/BikeSpecs.aspx?year=1996&brand=Ibis&model=EZ+Street


Wife took a personal day for the trip/task... And to see the kids who are 15 minutes from the seller...

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

9/17/13 8:19 AM


quote:
The standover back there is at the edge, but i am thinking with me doing the balancing act for the most part it will pass

Stoker don't need to "standover". The captain ALWAYS hold up the bike as the stoker gets on.

In fact, the stoker need to be clipped in and ready to pedal hard as soon as the captain push off.

That's how I'm told. And I found it works better that way to get the bike going initially.

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Anthony Smith
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 848
Location: Ohio

9/17/13 9:34 AM

another opinion

My wife and I picked up a used Raliegh "companion" mtb tandem for 400.00 several years ago. Changed our most everything--now it has dropped bars, road gearing, and so forth. The 26" wheels are perfect for this application. We run for everyday use 28* wheels with Dura Ace hubs and Velocity Aeroheat rims w/14 gauge wire. Lighter than most tandem wheels (26x1 slick tires) and have trued them once in the last 5 years. For TTs we use a 650 Zipp disc on the rear and an older 650 Zipp wheel on the front. The V brakes that came with it provide plenty of stopping power, even on descents.

Our gearing with the 26" wheels is 30/42/54 on the front and 12-25 10s on the rear.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/18/13 2:23 AM

Well, it was worth the drive. And of course we had lunch with the kids before heading over to do the deal. I am just a little excited.

What are the odds this would fit us about perfect.
Elaine had just a little too much reach. So a short reach bar for back there, and both custom painted to match Ibis stem can stay, Yeah!

I misunderstood him, I thought he said it was ridden 12 times. It was ridden 12 miles. One ride with his wife who decided she did not want to ride it. And with a niece up and down the block on a family dinner visit. It lived in the garage with 3 Ducatis, his new used Guzzi, an Open Honda dirt bike, a restored vintage twin that I was not familiar with, and his 840 tricked out Beemer Saloon. And a Laverda also mint. He is late 60s and rides them all he said. But not really into his bicycles anymore, leaving him with one road bike after parting with the Ibis.

It has a few tiny nicks in the paint and the one STI has garage lean marks and maybe a 2x3mm rub off on the STI name plate on the right side.

It behaved perfectly on the test ride, Elaine not only had some air standing over it, our first mount and take off up hill from his driveway went well.

She said it is so easy to pedal, not realizing I had pushed a ton of watt to make sure we got some momentum going and to avoid a dab or stop after a few feet.

Front 44CM bars too narrow, I want some leverage. Luckily the rear bars are the same except 46MM.
Stem is a 150 and 1-1/8" steerer. And I am happy with the allowable bar height I think. Unless ride shows it need to be different on the tandem than a road bike. It is 1/2" lower than my highest bars on the TCX. And 1" higher than the Scott.

Has the Foot pump peg and the Fist rear brake cable brace. And the Blue metallic paint is near perfect and beautiful.

I think we paid a premium price @ $1350.00, but pedals, rack & insulated bag, 4 bottle holders & bottles, a super nice blackburn pump, and the cateye with a dead battery included. And considering the replacement cost, we are happy with the cost thus far.

Wish us luck. We are taking it to Crater Lake on the weekend. They close the larger portion, like 3/4s of the perimeter rim drive to car traffic 2 days a year. 9/21-2 this year. I feel some wind sucking in our near future. It ain't flat exactly.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/18/13 2:35 AM

FWIW, the other one in our fit range we spied was a Trek T200 for 500.00 less. but the wheels where in bad shape and had spokes replaced according to the owner. It was not near as pretty and the IBIS. Elaine likes the blue. ;)

I did a non ride ready bike with this weekend the goal to get rolling... So we spent more, and I read the wheels where a major weak point on the treks.

Yada yada, we are done shopping...

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

9/18/13 7:00 AM


quote:
We are taking it to Crater Lake on the weekend.
...
It ain't flat exactly.

It's very far from flat in fact! Asked my ex-partner, and the tandem team we met there...

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

9/18/13 9:34 AM

I should have said sucking what little air may be up there maybe....



Generic Internet pic:

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