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Hot Feet
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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

6/23/13 5:19 PM

Hot Feet

I took a 4 hour ride today in hot and humid weather, didn't stop, only problem was the balls of my feet got hot. No biggy, it's happened before occasionally, never stopped me from riding. On centuries and stuff if it starts, the rest stops seem to control it. I know there is discussion about small pedal platforms and hot spots, but I don't think that's it, I have Time pedals with a good platform and Sidi shoes with a carbon sole. The shoes are 8 years old, it crossed my mind whether new shoes would make a difference. My guess is "no," but I welcome other opinions.

I did an all night walking event (not continuously) last week and was starting to get blisters on the balls of my feet, but they receded and I think probably didn't affect this.

I suspect this is a minor thing that I'll just deal with, but any magic solutions considered.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/23/13 5:42 PM

What are your road shoes, vents? I have two pairs that if I don't duct tape over the front vent inlet in colder riding times my feet get way cold.

Did you by chance put in new foot beds and close off the vent inadvertently ?

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

6/23/13 5:50 PM

I've had a version of this, or possibly what you describe, from a decade of using SPD mt. pedals on the road bike. The Hot Foot (It's not really a "hot foot") I suffer from is pain under the ball of the foot on the outside of the foot under the smallest toe. From all I've read, it's pressure generated from poor support of the foot at that location, partly a result of the design of the smaller cleat of the SPD system, and probably using too soft a sole on the shoes I was using (Diadora's). Swapping to a stiffer mt. shoe helped, as did moving the cleats all the way to the rear of the shoe, but the best solution was using SPD-L cleats and pedals on my long distance road bike. The wider pedal and cleat helps immensely.

Since you already have good quality shoes as well as a good pedal platform, possibly a different innersole would help. Possibly the next step would be moving the cleats rearward on the shoe, if not, then maybe orthotics. I recall well my podiatrist telling me a few years ago that your feet "grow" as you get older, with the tendons and ligaments stretching. Thus my sized 10.5 EE foot at age 20 is now an 11.5 EEEE at 58, so maybe new shoes as well ?.

http://www.roadbikerider.com/injuries/how-solve-painful-hot-foot

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/23/13 6:09 PM

feet getting bigger: two pairs of my shoes I had to use thinner sock and less padded foot beds.

Also SPD and standing = pain for me unless a rock solid carbon sole. The foot getting wider has bee true for me as well. I was a EE and now am a EEEE. So shoes for the bike are usually a compromise. Which is why I still over my old Lake TT shoes. Just a wide toe box and single enclosure up high. Not the best sprinting shoes, but I stay comfortable. And the Specialized road shoes I grabbed in 2011 when leaving the LBS job are also bigger toe boxes and no complaints from my feet. They have 3x closures so a big ring hop out of the saddle is well supported. Before I went from SPD to
the Keywins on road bike my feet used to kill me usually. Especially after out of the saddle climbing.

I used to get pains in the bones in my feet as some of my shoes got too narrow for my feet getting wider. Since I got new shoes those pains which used to be often are seldom if at all any more.

And thin socks, same as when I skied. Silk is good, or classic summer bike socks help me, may you too.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

6/23/13 6:23 PM

Thanks

The Matheny article is helpful. Since I only get this on long rides in hot weather, where I don't stop, the problem would seem likely to be swelling in heat. As a first step I could just loosen the pedal straps (doh!). The metatarsal buttons are interesting.

I won't move the cleats as my feet are different and I have a specific cleat placement (different for each foot) for biomechanical reasons (or at least what I perceive them to be). Don't think I'll try bigger shoes as these generally fit and I hate loose shoes. I don't like cramming extra stuff (insoles, orthotics) into shoes as I have a high instep and there's not a lot of extra room typically around the top strap.

Maybe time for new shoes anyway.[/b]

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/23/13 6:57 PM

"I have a high instep and there's not a lot of extra room typically "

Don't I know that!

Your instep anything like this ?

A doctor told me that if my instep was normal that my feet would be size 14 [not 11-1/2 then, 12 to 12-1/2 now] and that my heel and foot width/toes are size 14 as well.

I have had shoe fit challenges all my life, I suspect the same size bike IIRC is not the only thing we have in common.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

6/24/13 5:10 AM

It's all about shoe fit

I never bought into the nonsense about "platform size", since if your shoes have stiff soles, the size of the contact platform with the pedal is irrelevant. It's really all about getting a proper shoe fit and to some degree, ventilation. I have reasonably wide feet and have had trouble with hot spots at the outside base of my small toes when wearing shoes with inadequate sole width. No matter how well the upper wraps around, if the sole is too narrow, it causes hot spot problems.

I recently switched from Sidi to Bontrager shoes, which are slightly wider in the toe box and it has made a huge difference. I'm not sure how much it matters, but the Bontragers are also much better ventilated. I've done rides up to 90 miles with no hot spots, something that was unthinkable with other brands of shoes I've tried.

I never tighten the straps at the toes of my shoes, as doing so serves no purpose other than to squeeze one's toes together and having wiggle room in the toe box is a good thing for comfort. I don't generally tighten the middle straps either (I just pull them lightly snug), as I've never found it to be necessary, since it's the upper strap that pulls the foot down and back into the shoe.

Bottom line: concentrate on the fit and don't settle for anything that's less than ideal.

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

6/24/13 8:46 AM

"I never bought into the nonsense about "platform size", since if your shoes have stiff soles, the size of the contact platform with the pedal is irrelevant"

In my experience, the contact system is a factor. I have SPD-L on my fast road bike, SPD mountain pedals on my commuter road bike. I use both the R087 road shoe as well as the M087 mt. shoe, both from Shimano. Plastic soled, not carbon. I suffer hot foot pain on longer road rides (20+ miles) with the M087's. With the shoes being otherwise identical in sole material, width and length, except the that the M version has rubber lugs, the factor then become cleat placement and design. I can feel the difference and do not have issues after 40 miles with the road shoes.

So as the article stated, contact area can be a factor, but it can be somewhat minimized if using a very expensive carbon soled shoe.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

6/24/13 8:58 AM

Thanks all

What Brian says makes sense to me, and I think I'll try new shoes. I've long used Sidis, and even though I have a "high volume" foot I've used the regular sizes, not mega, because they are fine nearly all the time and I generally like a snug fit (sometimes I can barely close the top strap though). Reading a bit on the Sidi site, I am probably a candidate for the Mega. I think I'll try a Mega, and maybe another .5 size up. Only issue is I don't want the heel to slip and I think my heel is a bit thin (nothing is easy!).

Not like the old days where I can just go to an LBS and try them on, for Sidis it's mailorder crapshoot for me.

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KerryIrons
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 3234
Location: Midland, MI

6/24/13 6:40 PM

Stiffy


quote:
So as the article stated, contact area can be a factor, but it can be somewhat minimized if using a very expensive carbon soled shoe.


I don't think it has to be very expensive CF soled shoes (I watch for clearance sales and get them cheap) but it is about stiffness. A few shoes back I had some "pretty stiff" Lake shoes that I thought were just fine. I got some Diadora's with a CF sole and my comfort at about mile 100 improved significantly. I will never buy shoes without a CF sole (unless CF is replaced by something stiffer).

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cyclotourist
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 116

6/24/13 10:21 PM

Sidi

Hi Dan,

Bath Cycle always has lots of Sidi shoes In stock. Prices are pretty decent, too. Just in case you want to avoid the crapshoot!

David

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

6/25/13 4:12 AM

Sidis

Thanks David, I did not know that. I ordered a pair, but if they don't fit maybe I'll return them and head up to Bikeman. I pedaled into Brunswick Sunday, riding a course from a ride I'm doing later this summer. Pleasant Hill Rd is always fun.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

6/25/13 5:11 AM

I tried both the regular and Mega Sidis...

...and I found that the Megas were just a looser fit, but not significantly more comfortable. I have narrow heels and they really didn't work all that well for me. I strongly suggest looking at other brands. What I found was that Bontrager and Specialized fit me better than Sidi. Specialized has a wide option that's roomier in the toe without being too loose in the heel. An added bonus is that both brands are considerably less expensive than Sidi and in some models, lighter too. I'm currently using the Bontrager RXXXL road and RXL mountain shoes.

Going back to platforms size for a moment, it's really simple. If the shoe sole is rigid, platform size doesn't matter. It's only a factor if the sold is flexible and the more flexible the sole is, the more contact surface you need for comfort. Essentially, the pedal platform is compensating for the flexible sole. That said, if a small platform allows your feet to rock sideways on the pedals, that can cause pressure issues on the outsides of your feet.

One place where this becomes complicated is when you need soles that allow you to walk or run, such as in 'cross. I really like the flexibility of my worn-out Sidi Dragon 2s when I'm off the bike and hoofing it, but they're less than ideal for pedaling any real distance in comfort. The Bontragers have a rigid sole, but they added more rocker to it (compared with Sidi) which helps when walking and running. Specialized does the same thing.

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

6/25/13 6:37 AM

Good points Brian and is the reason I am now contemplating a pair of carbon soled shoes with the 2 bolt SPD pattern. They ARE more expensive then plastic, in the order of $30 or more per pair from what I'm seeing on-line, but as with shorts, quality works.

FWIW, I have 4E feet and find both the Diadora's and Shimano shoes comfortable. Shimano makes wide versions. I also like the ratcheting system of Shimano better then Diadora. I currently have a broken ratchet strap on a pair of expensive Diadora shoes, which renders the shoe useless. I've attempted contacing Diadora in Italy, but that's a process.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

6/25/13 11:05 AM

Carbon: IIRC my Lake TT shoes have fiberglass in the sole resin. They are not carbon and the soles are very stiff FWIW. So there other choices than carbon for stiffness if desired is my point.

Not only are these Lakes about the most comfortable shoes I've had. They still live [holding up well] and where not very expensive either. I do not know if it is so anymore, but I believe all Shimano shoes, at least where, made by Lake.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

6/26/13 5:12 AM

That's interesting Steve

My feet are not as wide as yours (E-width). I have Diadora shoes (both their brand and Cannondale shoes they made) and have tried Shimanos - all in standard width - and they're too narrow for me. I don't recall trying the Shimano wides.

Sparky is correct that when it comes to shoe soles, "rigid" doesn't necessarily mean "carbon". Often, a step or two down from the top end shoe in a given line will be just as rigid, but considerably more affordable. The biggest differences are likely to be materials, weight and perhaps the type of closure.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

6/26/13 4:50 PM

MegaCool

I got my Sidi Mega shoes today, and haven't ridden in them, but I've been wearing them around the house and think they will be a big improvement for me. Impressions may change when I ride in them, but I think they fit well. Much better fit over my high instep with more room and longer strap. Much more room around the ball of my foot if there is swelling on a hot day. I had been concerned about heel slippage, but no indication of that in walking (probably due to better fit of the instep strap). I also went up .5 of a European size as I think my feet have gotten slightly bigger over time.

Obviously this is not a "one size fits all" solution (sorry). My feet are wide (E or EE) but the real issue is the high instep (several types of shoes and boots I don't bother with as I can't get my feet into them no matter how wide the shoes are). Reading the Sidi website, these shoes are designed to accommodate that type of foot. I should get in a long ride this weekend and will report again.

I also get some Time Espresso pedals, which look nice.

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Rickk
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 528
Location: Montreal

6/27/13 6:25 AM

High instep as in higharches?

If very high arches - then there's relatively increased pressure on the balls of one's feet, when compared to normal arches.

If hot spot on the outside of your feet- as you stated, then maybe you also have somewhat more "varus ankles" or "supinated/inverted feet" (shop-talk jargon) than normal? Hard to say over the internet.

Anyways - Sometimes custom-made arch supports or cycling shoes ($$) may help re-distribute those (hot feet) pressure points somewhat more evenly, instead of concentrating them directly on the (outside) balls of the feet... ...sometimes.

No outright guarantee in cycling bc in itself, we all pedal with direct pressure over pedal spindle with balls of feet.

One way to test out this approach on the cheap may be to try a cheap soft-ish odor eater type of spongy sole insert and see if it molds a bit to the contours of your bony prominent balls of feet on the outside of your foot, hence causing less direct pressure on that particular area.

(Think high heels walking on hardwood floors and denting, vs putting a thick, dense sponge under the same heels ..and less or no denting.)

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/7/13 11:50 AM

Getting there

The hot foot issue seems to be coming under control, probably due to a couple factors. I think the biggest reason that the problem started was that I inflamed the bottoms of my feet doing an all night Relay for Life walkathon, then shortly after took a long, hot ride.

The inflamed feet quieting down is probably the biggest factor, but I also really like the Sidi Megas I switched to. They are a better fit for my blocky feet, and have a lot more room while still being stable on the foot. If the foot does swell, these have more room for adjustment. I ordered some Mega Dominators to use with my cross and commuting bikes (ATAC pedals). I also like the Time Xpresso pedals I got for the road bike.

I have a century in 2 weeks, we'll see how that goes. If it's stankin' hot and humid like it's been, that will be a test!

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: South of Heaven

7/12/13 3:16 PM

Hot Feet

Good thing Rex Ryan is not reading this thread or is he?

Stiff soles help. Orthotics is another solution to consider (seriously).[/i]

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

7/21/13 4:06 PM

Rode a century today

And I am please to announce, instead of Hot Feet, I had Happy Feet!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xnksquL557s&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxnksquL557s

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Steve B.
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 769
Location: Long Island, NY

7/21/13 4:20 PM

I started to get a recurrence of the hot foot pain last week.

I had already re-located the cleats on my SPD shoes to the rear limit, which helped on those bikes, but the pain never went away.

I just did the same on my SPD-L shoes, with 2 rides this weekend felt much, much better.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/21/13 9:32 PM

Another alternative for high arches or high volume feet

I just got back from a week of vacationing and riding in Quebec and we stopped at the Louis Garneau outlet in Newport, VT. I tried on some of their shoes and they seem to run both wide and roomy.

I picked up a pair of Europcar bibs, so now I need to work on my "Tommy Voeckler" faces. The hills in the Eastern townships combined with temps in the 90's and oppressive humidity provided me with plenty of opportunities to practice. ;-)

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

7/21/13 10:48 PM

"Louis Garneau"


My fav shorts are Louis Garneau, just got into the last pair of the four I got way back when once I found them and knew they where for me...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

7/23/13 5:15 AM

The outlet store...

... has their $170 bibs for $39.95. Supposedly you can order them online.

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