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Diesel Exhaust Fluid DEF, new one on me...
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

3/15/13 9:56 PM

Diesel Exhaust Fluid DEF, new one on me...

The guy at the auto parts place was telling me about the near $30.00 per container of DEF needed for a tank of Diesel for the newer Ford and Chevy Diesels. $Ouch$

He said 1/2 or more of the folks that come in for it had no idea they would have this added cost and requirement. Or the fact that the computer shuts down the truck when they try to run it with out the DEF.

Smokes...

Some browsing show the VW TDIs bigger than the 2.0TDI and Benz use it also, but not very much as compared to the US Diesel truck?

It is a good thing as far as emissions is concerned.

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3712
Location: Brooklyn, NY

3/16/13 4:52 AM

Yep. It's good for the environment, but pretty much wipes out any dollar savings from higher mileage of the diesel.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

3/16/13 5:53 AM

Odd, it is not part of the blend from the pump, yet the dope up gasoline with crap to cut emissions. That works btw. I saw the difference while living in Phoenix. The started using California blend while I lived there and the next season the air was clearer. Though I could have been reading more into the lack of the brown cloud or lack there of.

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

3/16/13 8:13 AM

DEF

It's basically cat piss, right?

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

3/16/13 9:37 AM

urea and distilled water along with a certain CAT that interacts with the injected exhaust apparently.

I way browsing for DIY DEF, seems someone is going to figure out something.

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Tom Price
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 505
Location: Rochester, NY

3/16/13 2:15 PM

DEF FAQ

A 5 Gal. fill of DEF lasts about 5,000 miles. My customers have not been concerned about the price of DEF. Their major beef is the 30 to 40 cents extra per gallon of the diesel fuel.

http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Ownership/Manuals%20and%20Videos/02_pdf/SilveradoHD_DEF.pdf

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

3/16/13 6:23 PM

"A 5 Gal. fill of DEF lasts about 5,000 miles"

In what size motor and what size loads? I read the VW 2.0 uses little, but an F250 4WD towing a horse laden 24' 5th wheel trailer?

The parts place guy estimated while towing all the time the 2.5 gal they sell needs refill in just over 1000 miles driving. I do not know if he was exaggerating or how much if he was. Total here-say...

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

3/17/13 5:16 AM

That crap won't be around long on consumer vehicles. What a pain along with the added costs. There is no savings involved in running desiel engine. If you have one it should be for other reasons.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

3/17/13 7:38 AM

"There is no savings involved in running desiel engine."

I assume you mean in a truck, the VW TDI MPG is good enough to overcome the more expensive fuel in time, yes? And the more expensive sticker is overcome in resale value. Seem diesel car and truck have very good resale.

The VW includes the fluid in the 3 years of service, cost built into the price of the car.

I also saw a post about some crazy price paid for the fluid @ a Benz dealer, thousands of percent mark up.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

3/17/13 9:46 AM

Seems wrong to use urea to control nitrogen emissions, but I'm not a chemist and don't even play one in motel rooms.

Benz parts are such a racket. Cat pee! Persian cats! (Iranian oil tie-in)

"Won't be around long" man, but to be trapped in the window where it is mandatory as an additive. Is this stuff put in a reservoir? It would have to be. Another sensor to go bad too.

So eventually when it becomes part of the mix at the pump what are current owners going to do? Take it to the dealer for a part-ectomy and reprogram? You can bet the manufacturers' lobbyists made sure their clients were off the hook for the cost, whether individual consumer or EPA tax payer.

And the nasty dump truck I was stuck behind yesterday will be exempt.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

3/17/13 10:05 AM

Can't Be


quote:
So eventually when it becomes part of the mix at the pump what are current owners going to do? Take it to the dealer for a part-ectomy and reprogram?

The urea solution may someday be available at the pump as a separate item but it can't be incorporated into the fuel so the special reservoir will have to remain. The urea is a water solution and, obviously, can't be mixed into the Diesel fuel.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

3/17/13 11:10 AM

Water solubility and the future: My credentials as a non-chemist are now even stronger!

Put a tiger in your tank:
Weren't drums of a urea and diesel mixture used in the Oklahoma City bomb?

--not saying that it has anything to do with solubility though.

edit, link: It's a post combustion additive in diesel.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

3/17/13 1:39 PM

Resale value means crap to me. By the time I sell a car these days it is better off suited to a collector or landfill.

I will say it again diesel cars don't make sense and don't save money in the US. I looked at a Jett's TDI when I bought he last new car. Would cost me more at the pump and sticker even with the added MPG.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

3/17/13 6:09 PM

Nope


quote:
Weren't drums of a urea and diesel mixture used in the Oklahoma City bomb?

Your credentials as a non-chemist are even more solid. The explosive mixture in the Oklahoma City bomb was ammonium nitrate and diesel fuel.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

3/17/13 6:49 PM

Fertilizer.

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KerryIrons
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 3234
Location: Midland, MI

3/17/13 7:13 PM

Chemistry 101


quote:
Seems wrong to use urea to control nitrogen emissions, but I'm not a chemist and don't even play one in motel rooms.


As noted by Dave B, it would be appropriate for daddy-o to stop trying to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is NOT a chemist.

The additives are not to control nitrogen emissions. The air is 79% nitrogen and so said emissions would not be an issue. The problem is NOX (nitrogen oxides) which lead to acid rain, that orange smog, etc. The additives reduce the NOX to N2 in the heat of the exhaust system, which is desirable.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

3/18/13 12:11 AM

Hmm, a shadow appears on the doubt.

More than 90% of world production of urea is destined for use as a nitrogen-release fertilizer.

Urea nitrate is a fertilizer-based high explosive that has been used in improvised explosive devices in Israel, Iraq, and various other terrorist acts elsewhere in the world, like the 1993 World Trade Center bombings. Urea nitrate is produced in one step by reaction of urea with nitric acid.

A little credit from the experts for the layman?

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

3/18/13 4:36 AM

Deleted.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

3/18/13 7:29 AM

Not The Same

Urea and Urea Nitrate aren't the same thing any more than Sodium Cyanide and Sodium Chloride are the same thing. The relationship is like that of ammonia used to wash windows and ammonium nitrate which is a fertilizer and, when mixed with fuel oil is a low grade explosive.

The chemist rests.

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bboston75
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 367
Location: philadelphia

3/18/13 9:32 AM

Jetta tdi

Does not use urea injection although some of the larger VW diesels in SUVs do. Ours gets well over 40 mpg at highway speed and mid 30s in town, lots of torque too.

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3307
Location: Springfield

3/18/13 10:11 AM

Thanks Dave. Considering how easy it is to create urea nitrate from urea I thought I was in the ballpark. Easy, not safe.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

3/18/13 10:19 AM

After looking a lot online about it, I do not think I would have a problem with a small TDI with or without the DEF and CAT emissions system. The bigger VW TDI that do need it use very little, and the system cuts pollution, especially the particulate matter down. Only good. Wonder when the emissions specs will cause a mandate on the 2.0 TDIs to need the systems. These are probably way behind the timeline it should have been implemented for cleaning up the diesel pollution.

Considering I sold probably my last truck, I may have reacted out of habit as i have always had a 3/4 ton truck in the stable, and the van was my second full ton truck. I will rent one if I need the use. I went from 14k over 4-1/2 years on the GMC 2500 I had in TN to a few thousand on the Full ton van here in the last year. Not worth carrying the cost for the convenience considering. And I tended to use Elaine car when she was not at work for running around and grabbing bikes on the weekend, and drive the Del Sol for my daily driver now.

So when and how will full electric cars get sur-charged or taxed for what is not getting collected at the pumps for taxes is my next question.

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

3/18/13 11:00 AM

Interesting Question


quote:
So when and how will full electric cars get sur-charged or taxed for what is not getting collected at the pumps for taxes is my next question.

There has to come a time when an electric verison of gasoline tax is imposed as the government is too dependent on this source of money.

In Europe heating oil (it's the same as Diesel fuel) is not taxed while road Diesel is heavily taxed. One of them is dyed (blue?) and the penalties for using heating oil in your car or truck are pretty stiff.

It's funny to see one part of the government trying to decrease gasoline usage and another part crying how reduced fuel sales are reducing their income.

It's a lot like smoking where the government health authorities are doing everything they can to reduce it while the tax people are trying desperately to keep their income from tobacco sales as high as possible.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

3/18/13 11:12 AM

"It's a lot like smoking where the government health authorities are doing everything they can to reduce it while the tax people are trying desperately to keep their income from tobacco sales as high as possible."

I am all for diverging threads, so here goes...

Just a guess, taxes on tobacco VS health care costs
is just more borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

Not being a smoker or drinker, now. I feel the surcharges and taxes should be as high as possible so my health care costs are more in line with my life habits, and not folks needing liver transplants and Chemo from said intake{s}. Not to mention the average fitness among the users here is likely way above the curve. Even for the slow fat among us [me]. Still not on any meds, except the nerve pain shit for my leg. Closed ended when I actually heal.
Qualifier, not a pain med, but nerve receptor interupterer.... [zoo miles on foot yesterday I am paying for since last night too]

Of course I only felt 1/2 as strongly about it when I was drinking beer daily. But over 5 years later, since my last bit of booze... I guess that makes me a 1/4 hypocrite [3/8?]. Not sure how fast you can fry a liver on Coors, as compared to distilled spirits.
Back to 1/4 maybe....

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: hillbilly heaven

3/18/13 11:44 AM

VW HPFP failures

Sparky- you've mentioned VW TDI's several times and I just want to make sure you know about this. There have also been rail failures and its not limited to VW. Some blame the distributirs for using the same tankers for gas and diesel. This is an $11,000 repair that is not warranted.

heres the search I did:

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=vw+hpfp+failure&oq=vw+hppf&gs_l=hp.1.1.0i13l4.0.0.1.3701.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.les%3B..0.0...1c..6.psy-ab.krKwa12oLRU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43828540,d.dmg&fp=f99631f5c2ca6dec&biw=836&bih=470

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