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PDX Mall Shooting, Fook!
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17123
Location: Portland, OR

12/11/12 7:55 PM

PDX Mall Shooting, Fook!

Glad my wife did not stop at the Mall after work [1/4 mile from her work] to shop today...

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dfcas
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2574
Location: hillbilly heaven

12/11/12 8:44 PM

Its dominating the news in the east. There was a natural gas explosion in WV, but they have dropped that for the mall shooting.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17123
Location: Portland, OR

12/11/12 10:10 PM

Since Colorado last year..

The preparedness was unreal. Training for mall management and local law enforcement obviously under Home Land Security Mandate I'd say...

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8310
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/12/12 3:58 AM

A crazed shooter would not be around long in a mall in my parts. There are lots of people here who would shoot back. I am just saying, not looking for a debate about it.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3260
Location: NorCal

12/12/12 4:56 PM

Obviously that could be a much more immediate solution, if not an outright deterrent.
An unarmed populace is a pack of sitting ducks to the however-infrequent mass assassin, though these events (put in perspective of a global news reach) are quite rare.
You don't need everybody armed, but you also don't want criminals thinking that everybody is un-armed, either.
I just don't see homeland security police state as a good answer. The simple deterrent of an armed percentage of the populace is proven to be effective where it is allowed.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8310
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/12/12 5:15 PM

Correct.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17123
Location: Portland, OR

12/12/12 6:02 PM

What is weird is that the news said the shooter stole the AR15 form a friend or something.
I bought some wheels last week off craigslist and the guy I met @ McDonalds had just picked up a new AR15. I don't want to know, I think...

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8310
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/12/12 6:38 PM

I have an AR15 in 5.56 that I built from a stripped lower, I put together every piece of it. I also have an AR10 family weapon that I hunt with in .308Win.

Neither have been nor will they be used to commit a crime. The gun never commits the crime.

The type or style of weapon is not the issue here or in any shooting, the shooter is.

This dude was fooked in the head for sure. Just like the "joker" shooter in CO.

The AR15 is the most popular style of rifle in the nation now. They are selling faster than anything else made. In fact just about every gun maker sells their version.

They are a truly modular gun with dimensions that are followed religiously. This is because buyers insist on it. We want parts to interchange with ease just like in a bike.

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mag7
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 888
Location: Lake James, NC

12/12/12 11:28 PM


quote:
We want parts to interchange with ease just like in a bike.


It was that way back in the 1700s.

Had it not been for the smooth bore Brown Bess (not very accuse) that British were using as opposed the "Ferguson Rifle" that British Major Patrick Ferguson designed that, like the Overmountain Men's flintlocks that had a "rifled" (much more accurate) barrel, we would likely be living under British rule today.

The Ferguson rifle likely have led to slaughter at the Battle of Kings Mountain, Cowpens, Guilford Courthouse and ultimately Washington's army....which did not happen largely because if poor reliability and lack of spare parts.
This question will be on the test - lol

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3260
Location: NorCal

12/14/12 2:19 PM

Another shooting

So now the President is set to give a speech about a shooting in Connecticut, so I guess he has to play a role here?
Just seems weird that the story is so focused on what the POTUS is going to say about it.
So what's he supposed to do?
And what of this "lock-down" business? Sounds like it would make it easier to inventory the student population after such an incident, but unless the classroom doors (and walls) are fortified against munitions, does it make sense to prevent people from moving away from the origin of gunfire? Does this make sense?
If I was a student near such activity, I would be inclined to bolt with my classmates and scatter, but will modern classrooms facilitate or hinder this option?
I can hear the newscaster describing this type of shooting as becoming "chronic and persistent", followed by another hyping gun confiscation as the first and only remedy being suggested.
I guess we should make all those teachers go through metal detectors to make absolutely sure they are completely un-armed?

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Andy M-S
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3201
Location: Hamden (greater New Haven) CT

12/14/12 2:51 PM

Everyone, calm down.

1. This event took place about 25 miles from here.

2. It's over. Nothing we can say or do will turn back the clock.

3. Nobody (so far as I've heard) has said gun confiscation. I have heard talk about "better" gun control. Whether that would have made a difference in this case is an open question, but not one that will profit from discussion right now.

4. Facts are woefully lacking and confused. As always.

5. Right now, it's been turned into an entertainment event. Dirty Laundry, remember? Let's not contribute to that.

Let the dead have their dignity, the wounded their healing, the families their grieving, for a little while.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3260
Location: NorCal

12/14/12 3:26 PM

I should have been more sensitive to the possibility of a local person being in the vicinity, especially if they have kids.

I did hear the talking head on the TV make the comment about these "chronic" incidents followed immediately by a second commentator (don't know who) coming out with the comment about needing to "get these guns off the streets" or some-such. It was all too predictable, I was waiting for it.
And now that the Pres has spoken, the news has gone into a 15 minute cycle repeat mode for no doubt the rest of the afternoon.

Not to take away from the dead's dignity, but some things are best noted real-time imo. You're right, it's being played like circus info-tainment.

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DPotter
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 950
Location: Portland, Maine

12/14/12 4:08 PM

Lockdown is SOP here at the school where my wife works. IIRC they had an incident recently where an unauthorized person was roaming the halls and went into lockdown just in case.

I don't know if it's a good policy or not, but it's common.

For the school admins and teachers, they are damned no matter what. Do something, do nothing, stay, run, someone will find fault.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17123
Location: Portland, OR

12/14/12 4:24 PM

[Font=a_gizillion]'LONG EXHALING SIGH'[/Font]

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2409
Location: Canberra, Australia

12/14/12 8:44 PM

There does seem to be a correlation between the prevalence of firearms and the murder rate. e.g.

Guns per hundred residents (2007 figures)

US: 88
Canada: 30
Australia: 15

Homicide rate per year per 100,000 residents (2011 figures)

US: 4.2
Canada: 1.6
Australia: 1.0

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6494
Location: Westchester/NYC

12/14/12 8:54 PM

Correlation, yes. Causality? It's less clear which is cause which is consequence.

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3624
Location: Brooklyn, NY

12/14/12 8:59 PM

The argument, of course, is that the gun ownership numbers need to increase dramatically in order to reduce the homicide rate.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17123
Location: Portland, OR

12/14/12 9:29 PM

Like to see the numbers of how many got shot with their own weapon either directly or indirectly and which.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2409
Location: Canberra, Australia

12/14/12 9:33 PM


quote:
It's less clear which is cause which is consequence

Are you arguing that Americans are naturally more homicidal?

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Dave B
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4511
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

12/14/12 9:34 PM


quote:
There does seem to be a correlation between the prevalence of firearms and the murder rate. e.g.

Guns per hundred residents (2007 figures)

US: 88
Canada: 30
Australia: 15

Homicide rate per year per 100,000 residents (2011 figures)

US: 4.2
Canada: 1.6
Australia: 1.0

It would be interesting to add the statistics for Switzerland to this list. They would probably mess up the correlation.

Also, years ago, before all of the confiscation, gun ownership numbers in both Canada and Australia were much higher but I expect the murder rates were at or below the current figures.

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dddd
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 3260
Location: NorCal

12/14/12 9:44 PM

No doubt the numbers are skewed regionally, with grossly disproportionate murder rates occuring in urban areas with severe gang and drug-dealing problems.
Among that disproportionate fraction of Americana, what percent of those weapons are legally sold, anyway? Banning gun sales and gun ownership would dis-arm law-abiding gun owners and have almost no effect on illegal gun toting gangstas, except that they would eventually figure out that fewer of the good guys were likely to be armed.

Today's shooting, the action of a psychotic, could alternately have been manifested in perhaps a series of arsens, or any other form of attack on a large number of people, such as a vehicle being used to ram a crowd, or a booby trap, bombing, flame-thrower, mass poisoning, electrifying a swimming pool, you name it. Carrying guns to do a mass shooting could actually limit the potential for casualties.

You could also perhaps make a comparison of those countries with the US for rates of imprisonment, and possibly conclude that the rate of crime (not gun ownership stat's) is behind the higher murder rates quoted.

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8310
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

12/14/12 10:02 PM

Our overall crime rate is much higher than the stated countries for many reasons.

Nobody wants to go down that firestorm of hell corrolation, not even on this forum.

Look up crime statistics and go from there. Dig. Who commits the crimes, per capita etc.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6494
Location: Westchester/NYC

12/14/12 10:04 PM


quote:
Are you arguing that Americans are naturally more homicidal?

Perhaps not exactly "naturally".

But Americans do seem to have a lot of angry people these days. That anger has to go somewhere. And the current popular culture do glorify violence. Guns are just the means. Put those factors together, it's little wonder why homicide rates are high.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2409
Location: Canberra, Australia

12/14/12 10:22 PM


quote:
It would be interesting to add the statistics for Switzerland to this list. They would probably mess up the correlation.
I just had a look at the stats. The corresponding figures for Switzerland are 45 and 0.7. A low murder rate with a high number of firearms. But in Switzerland, as well as weapons that are privately owned, all male citizens have to undergo compulsory military service, and are issued with a firearm that they keep at home (though they don't get given ammunition to go with it). And my observation (from having spent considerable time there - one of my brothers has lived in Switzerland for decades), is that your average Swiss is more polite and accommodating and less aggressive than your average Australian, Canadian, or American.

quote:
No doubt the numbers are skewed regionally, with grossly disproportionate murder rates occuring in urban areas with severe gang and drug-dealing problems.
Highest and lowest murder rates in the US:

DC: 24 murders per 100,000
New Hampshire: 0.8 murders per 100,000

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 17123
Location: Portland, OR

12/14/12 10:38 PM

Highest and lowest murder rates in the US:

DC: 24 murders per 100,000

I do not think you are supposed to count defeated bills. Oh, you didn't else it would be

DC: 24 murders per 100


This is interesting, from http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

2011 Stats seem to indicate Louisiana 11.2 / 100k as the high and for 2011 DC not actually listed, due to state by state list I guess.

<img src="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/images/murderrate.png" /img>

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