7/23/24 5:28 PM

Having been paying attention during the Armstrong era and the various incidents like Operation Puerto it doesn't surprise me the number of people out in the world wildly skeptical of the big hitters in road cycling- Vingo, Pog, van der Poel, Evenepoel, etc. Speed records have fallen in the grand tours, in the monuments and one-day classics, in nearly every type of race by huge margins.

Even GCN, which seems to try to take a neutral stance on most things, has had multiple videos in recent months about mechanical doping specifically.

Equipment is better, nutrition is vastly better, training is better. This certainly accounts for a lot of it. Even so, some of the records being shattered like the Plateau de Beile climb of Pantani, whom we knew to be doped to the gills, by 3:44 by Pog and Vingo a bit farther back, are raising a lot of eyebrows.

I can't deny some amount of skepticism but I've also heard not a single iota of credible evidence. There are some wild theories out there, there was a ludicrous one last week about how pog moved his hands at a certain point of the race 'proved' he was turning on a motor, but they are useful only for entertainment value.

I feel like Mulder with an "I want to believe" poster on the wall but more often than not come back to the cold experience and cynicism of Scully. I do want to believe, and we're due for a "once in a generation" talent like Merckx (it's been several generations, actually), but I'm still a bit jaded from the dark days of the 90s and 00s.

I'm not saying they are or aren't just that as records continue to fall I feel questions simmering in my neurons.

7/26/24 3:40 AM

I had a fairly long conversation at the gym yesterday with a friend who recently retired from a long career with ASADA (Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority, the equivalent here of USADA). We were talking about the performances at the Tour, and his opinion is that even today, there's probably only 5-10% of riders in the pro peleton who aren't doping in some form, although it's nothing like as blatant as in the drug-fuelled 1990s and 2000s.

I guess we can only wait for a few years and see what comes out of the woodwork. When you look back at the history of cycling, dopers aren't usually caught red-handed. The big scandals are exposed by investigations or whistle-blowers, not anti-doping violations.

7/26/24 7:47 AM

I guess I fall into Rob's camp... hopefull, but guarded due to past experience.

I recall being swept up in the Armstrong saga, but after he won his first 3 or 4 Tours, noticed that his responses to media questions were very intimidating and evasive. I remember one member of the media asked him on camera if he had ever done PEDs and his response involved raising his voice and saying "I'm the most tested man in the peloton and I've never tested positive". 🤔 hmmm. Might be true Lance, but you didn't answer the question. After several of those interchanges, I began to suspect something didn't pass the smell test.

Some analyst on Cycling News tried to do a quantitative comparison of Pog vs Pantani on Plateau de Beille while considering aero frames, aero wheels, lower tire rolling resistance, different climbing positions (Pantani used to stand a lot on climbs) and even "slicker" clothing. His assessment had a few too many WAG estimates for my taste, but he concluded that Pog might have had a 40 Watt advantage over Pantani from all the improvements. Did that account for almost 4 minutes? Maybe???

My only deep down doubts involved how after a long stage with several HC and Cat 1 climbs and ridden at very fast pace, some of the top riders looked they hadn't done anything more that take a stroll in the park. Something just doesn't always "look right", but as Rob pointed out, there is no evidence toward doping and maybe it is just attributable to better training techniques and nutrition? I hope so, but won't be surprised if not. Could be they are just onto something that isn't even banned yet. LOL.

7/26/24 8:12 AM

comparison of Pog vs Pantani on Plateau de Beille while...

Thepaceline forum post for your perusal.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=3405770&postcount=1


I assume I don't speak only for myself when I say "once bitten twice shy"

7/26/24 8:57 AM

That's the general feeling. With or without dope they are incredible riders, and something we can't even imagine in our own riding. So we watch the races. And we wonder.

7/27/24 6:11 AM

My question is "If they are doping...with what?" At this point, the awareness of doping and testing protocols are making it highly unlikely. I think it's pretty safe to say the "omerta" era is over, so doping would likely be exposed pretty quickly.

Cycling has fully embraces sports science now. Training by feel and instinct is long gone. Nutrition, hydration, and even body temp are monitored and controlled like they've never been before, leading to substantial increases in performance. Equipment has changed dramatically, as well. While the performance of riders like Pogi are amazing, perhaps we shouldn't be so surprised.

7/27/24 7:36 AM

Could be same PEDs, micro dosing with better tech in masking, perhaps biologics... Color me skeptical.