6/15/22 7:46 AM

...but Shimano doesn't suck.

I'm a self-styled Campy grouch but now that I finally got the Cervelo gravel bike adjusted to my fit I've been riding it on the road. I bought it early this year from an LBS where the owner, who also sold me my first ever racing bike, was retiring and selling the business to Trek.

Originally I was going to xfer my Record bits from my Strong to the Cervelo because "I hate Shimano" but I realized after a bit that it was a really dumb idea to limit myself to one bike because of what is likely just a silly bias.

Don't get me wrong, I continue to think Campy is far sexier and I prefer it. However, I've trained on the new bike for the past 1.5 weeks and that brand new 105 group is crisp, easy, and I honestly have nothing to complain about. I've very much enjoyed that bike and those 30mm tires make for a much more comfortable ride.

I'm honestly considering having my next bike be Shimano just because part availability is so much better. I wish it weren't that way, but I think this may be one small way I can get over myself and grow into a more reasonable person, as silly as that may sound in this context.


All that being said, I'll. never admit that SRAM is anything but horrible :-D

6/15/22 8:27 AM

I tolerate Shimano on rental bikes, and like but don’t love SRAM. My upcoming bike is Campy Ekar.

6/15/22 9:27 AM

I have 11s Ergo, Di2, and limited SH cabled. I just do not like the brake lever swing. But the 11s SH are pretty buttery and smooth.

11s Ergo are so very comfortable in the hand, the 10s not so much for me.

I manly like the Di2 due to last few years of a lot of solo/longer times on the bike. My right cubital tunnel once irritated won't recover with that swinging the brake lever action. But not ridden much 11s SH after it becomes symptomatic.

I wonder if the smoother action might be better. But 7800 was pretty buttery, I think it is all the multi gear downshifts and long swings.

I am on the tops a lot due to solo riding, and have remote buttons for bar top shifting and a lot less hand/arm issues on long bike times as a result. 30. years of construction has my arms and hands a bit shop worn..

My Di2 is set to only do 3 gears on a button hold. Sometimes I do it twice.

6/17/22 11:01 AM

I own Campy 9/10 and Di2, I work on Linda's Shimano and SRAM 10/11 systems, plus a few friends' bikes. I haven't tried Campy or SRAM electronic shifting.

When it comes to Shimano mechanical systems, I never liked the idea of the pivoting brake lever. After having one slip out of my hand on a muddy cyclocross downhill, that confirmed my bias was warranted and the bike was quickly re-equipped with Campy. While Shimano mechanical is silky smooth and works well other than the problem described above, I find that its action is actually too light and doesn't provide the level of tactile or audible feedback I prefer. I don't like the restriction on the number of outward shifts in the rear, as it slows me down when making simultaneous front/rear shifts, which I do pretty frequently in the hills around here.

Di2 has been a huge disappointment. The automatic shifting functions - which are why I tried it - are slow, inflexible and largely useless. Front shifts and single shifts in the rear are quick and precise, but multiple shifts are slow if you make them one at a time, and if you hold the shifter it's anybody's guess how many gears it will shift. That makes simultaneous front/rear shifts imprecise, too. This simply isn't tolerable for the way I ride. I've also found it too easy to hit the wrong button, particularly with winter gloves on.

Another huge complaint I have with Shimano is the lack of repairability; they don't even offer most parts. Their philosophy is that their gear is disposable and if it breaks, you just supposed to pony up the bucks for a new one. I absolutely despise this attitude and that alone is enough reason for me not to give them my money!

SRAM mechanical is much better than Shimano in the tactile/audible feedback department. Some people say it's too noisy, but it doesn't bother me and I like the overall feel of their gear. Double-Tap takes some initial getting-used-to, but it works well and I haven't seen any issues with durability. Only being able to make one outward shift at a time in the rear is a significant disadvantage, which again slows simultaneous front/rear shifts. Parts are generally available to fix it if it gets damaged.

Campy mechanical is the best overall system, in my opinion. It allows multiple shifts in both directions in the rear, making simultaneous front/rear shifts lighting quick - nothing else comes close. I like having two shift levers that aren't operated with the same finger(s), which completely eliminates any confusion or the possibility of hitting the wrong lever/button, even with winter gloves on. Parts are available and consequently, I can still use shifters and derailleurs that are well over a decade old (though admittedly, some parts are becoming scarce). Campy will remain my go-to for the foreseeable future, at least on road bikes.

One major complaint I have about all of three brands is the lack of gearing options. They make a variety of chainring options - which is nice - but they insist that all of their cassettes start with an 11 tooth cog...or worse yet, 9 or 10 tooth cogs. I would literally have to use MTB cranks to get the gearing I want with their cassette offerings, which just doesn't work on a road bike. This is the primary reason I haven't upgraded beyond 10 speed on my road bikes. Just give me a 13-29 or 13-32 for crying out loud!

6/17/22 1:12 PM

" if you hold the shifter it's anybody's guess how many gears it will shift."

Configuring it to be one gear to a complete a swipe [and all points in between optionally] via the e-tube software not withstanding, this is confusing to me your saying it.

If configured to the default full swipe, it is hard to pick a stop/timing point with a release of the button, worse if hitting bumps simultaneously.

Agree that even configured to fastest shift speed, more than 3x setting seems slower than a cabled/swipe, thus my 3x setting. And clearly, Ergos dump to smaller cogs fastest via the thumby. Not sprinting much these days myself. ;)

Also agree as to lack of being tactile. Shifting over bumpy terrain like CX I can totally see as not optimum, read not desirable. ;)

Agree Di2 front shifting is VG, even on my 30/46, 28/42, 34-52, and 36-54 Ovals. All beyond spec.
So I would say exquisite myself.

I seem to miss shifts more on Di2, more-so with worn and earlier versions. Especially my 10s ST-6770 shifter that work with 11s systems, but V1 is V1... Slowly replacing these oldest shifters.

Newest is the Boone, R8070 and not getting that so far, but only ridden it 3 rides, @JuryStillOut. I will also say the lack of ports in the Hydro STs ruling out some remote switching options not made me happy.

I'd add that I have slipped fingers off cabled levers in bumps and wet as well.

6/17/22 1:16 PM

@Brian.

If we were in the same room [bar], I'd be interested in a longer conversation that seems less like I am calling you out.

Trying hard to be respectful in my points and more so counter points. Way more important to me than any stupid shifter or gear POV.

Alas, I don't drink, so Sushi? ;)

6/18/22 7:48 AM

Sushi would be fine, but being on opposite coasts, it could be difficult. Then again, I'm within reasonable driving distance of the real Portland, should you ever decide to visit the original. ;-)

I don't feel like you're "calling me out" at all. We can disagree and that's fine, as we all have personal preferences. One of the best things about this forum is that we can express our differences without them turning into arguments.

I find Campy Ultra-Shift very useful when dropping from the large to small chainring on hills, as I can simultaneously shift 2-3 cogs in the rear and never miss a beat. The same is true after cresting a hill when I want to grab the big ring and shift a couple of cogs in the rear. I make these shifts so often that it's become automatic and no other shifting system is anywhere near as quick.

What I was getting at with Di2 is that if you're trying to make multiple shifts without punching the button continuously, it's basically a crap-shoot as to how many gears it will shift. This is not exclusive to Di2, it's a disadvantage of all electronic shifting systems.

What I really wish Campy had done with EPS is keep the long lever throws with multiple clicks, but use switches or optical sensors in the levers to trigger electronic shifts - single or multiple. That way you could still have all the speed and tactile advantages of mechanical Ultra-Shift combined with the precision of electronic shifting. It seems like the kind of thing that Fairwheel Bikes would be willing to build...for a price.

Last edited by Brian Nystrom on 6/18/22 11:39 AM; edited 1 time in total

6/18/22 10:09 AM

If you come to this Portland, I’ll be happy to join you for sushi but not if you talk about di2 shifting. I have a different approach, mechanical or electronic - I just kind of hit the lever and it shifts. I’m nearly always on the hoods which may simplify things a bit.

I also do simultaneous front and rear shifts, and I can do them a little quicker with Campy mechanical than SRAM e-tap, but the difference is so small it’s never occurred to me as an issue. Maybe a 1/4 of a pedal stroke.

Ignorance is bliss!

6/18/22 11:19 AM

I'd love to visit Maine. Not spent any time since living in Boston in the late 70s. Used to hop north semi frequently. NH, VT and Maine etc.

Open invite for riding and surf or turf, love to receive folk here. Even Rob [Wink Wink] ;)

Funny thing about Rob and I for this purpose. We've done a few bike visits/rides. Each time one of us was way more fit that the other, the next time the other was more fit.

This year nearly 1/2 over, it would be Kayaks probably...

I have come close to buying EPS mini groups. I am curious to try VS the Di2, just not actually done it quite yet.

Side Note for Dan, The Hound is doing well, not quite back to normal in the plumbing dept.

The next challenge will be the un-spoiling from the special diet of boiled chicken, drained cooked chopped beef, rice/oatmeal, egg yada...

6/18/22 1:36 PM

Great news about the dog. If she turns up her nose at kibble, you know you’re in trouble. I’m guessing not.

I could fly out there to pick up my bike, but I think I’ll let them send it….

6/18/22 2:00 PM

I can proxy visit if you need some eyes...

6/18/22 5:59 PM

I'm fairly agnostic about it. I have one bike with Campagnolo Ekar (and I used to race on Chorus, and back in the 1970s on Nuovo Record), two bikes with Sram Doubletap, two bikes with Sram eTap, one bike with Shimano Ultegra 10-speed, and three or four bikes with Shimano bar-end shifters.

However, so far as "complete" groupsets go, not a single one of those bikes qualifies. The closest is the Ekar bike, where only the cranks and seatpost are from another manufacturer. Everything else has quite a mixture of components - eg both the bikes running Doubletap have Shimano FDs, because I think they work better.

6/19/22 6:16 AM

I've been vacillating a bit, but I know if I get a Pursuit and put Shimano on it I'll regret it despite availability in my part of the world.

Scheduling a bike fit, then going to drop a deposit on a frame. I'll likely build it myself as I'd like to deviate from some of the options Carl has re: groups/cockpits/wheels.

6/19/22 9:07 AM

I haven't bought an off-the-shelf road bike in decades; I always build them myself. Part of the reason for that has been that Campy isn't spec'd on many bikes. Like Nick, I often mix drivetrain parts, particularly using different brand cranks and cassettes. I'm considering trying one of the SRAM Yaw-type front derailleurs with Campy shifters, in order to eliminate the need for trimming the FD. Has anyone tried that?

6/19/22 9:31 AM

Well, pursuit isn't exactly off the shelf but there is a limited number of wheel and component options.

6/19/22 11:15 AM

I'd assume you are talking 12s for a new build if Shimano?? We are about to loose the wheel/FHB reverse SH compatibility once again.

Side Note: Seen cassette and chain prices of late?

_______
In case folk are not aware, Carl is a Vendor on ThePaceline forum.

There are posts/thread to peruse with completed Pursuit machines newly rolling.

Also Carl posts some of the more upper crust paint schemes from darkmatter

Link:http://www.darkmatterfinishing.com/

An example of Landshark style finish.