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Record 12 non disc Groupo Sale 1270.00
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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/22/19 8:53 PM

FWIW, they make Di2 in 8 speed. It is Alfine internal hub. Well, they make it also in 11 speed. Alfine internally geared Di2 disc hubs, well the Di2 control is a Motor plate to actuate the hubs shifting I guess. But all the e-tube switches are cross compatible pretty much.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/alfine-s7050s705-di2.html

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

5/23/19 5:02 AM

Automatic shifting

I don't recall many of the specifics, but it did allow you to program your shift points based on cadence and power output. That way, it wouldn't downshift if you were just loafing along at a slow cadence or upshift if you were blasting out the watts at a high cadence.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/23/19 10:43 AM

I'll drive an automatic car. I am, for the daily driver... Still 3 sick cars here. [one for sale].

But no way in HE-DoubleToothpicks am I doing an auto bike. ;)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

5/23/19 2:09 PM

I have no interest in it either, but I also have no interest in E-Bikes and they're apparently selling like hotcakes. Let's face facts, Americans are lazy. If they can make a device do something for them so they can be less engaged in an activity and expend less energy as well, they'll whip out their credit cards in a heartbeat. This is really bizarre when it come to exercise-related products, but it seems to be true. The next thing you know, we'll have a epidemic of people texting while riding.

I understand that the main benefit of E-Bikes and by extension, similar technologies, is that it makes cycling more accessible to more people who might not otherwise be able to participate. For people who truly need the assistance, I say "more power to ya". However, that's not what I'm seeing around here. More common are able-bodied people who simply want to go faster than they can on their own. So now you have a bunch of riders with limited skills blasting around at 20+ mph and inserting themselves into group rides with stronger, more skilled riders, where they arguably don't belong. I've seen this in our local club and it's really frustrating because the person involved is extremely likeable, but he frequently blows by people without ever offering a wheel. When he took his upright E-hybrid, with a rack, huge rack bag, kickstand and mirrors, then put $2000 Hed carbon aero wheels on it, I nearly puked. BTW, he says he can really feel the difference in performance. Oooooh Kaaaaay. ;-)

OTOH, when I rode with E-bikers on vacation last year in Glacier National Park, I was OK with it, since the riders simply wouldn't have been able to complete the trip without the motor assist. Sure, it was mildly annoying to see a somewhat flabby, 70+ year old woman cruise by on a 10% grade while not even breaking a sweat, but for the most part, they were off doing their own thing. There were a few instances of a lack of courtesy and some sketchy riding, but it wasn't a big deal. One of the women in the group was actually very interested in learning how to pace us and did her best to try, but it was difficult to coach her because we didn't fully understand how the E-bikes worked and she had never paced anyone before. We appreciated the effort, nonetheless. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's since bought an E-bike and is back home pacing her husband around now.

Sorry for the thread drift.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/23/19 3:04 PM

Cycling drift OK by me. ;)

"If they can make a device do something for them so they can be less engaged in an activity and expend less energy as well, they'll whip out their credit cards in a heartbeat."

Which is why my 1982 Yamaha XV902R I had sine 93ish was sold and I wear a Tee that sez "I Am The Motor". I just whip out the DB/CCs for new toys, none with motors. I confess occasionally looking at MCs every now and again. Like 250-500s, I probably can't pick up a real full size MC should I need to alone like I used to be able to. Or shouldn't without this small hernia becoming a real full size....

But, I did a Club ride after I got the Spectrum, not having been riding with those folk for a few years. A few of the 2nd/3rd group guys are now 3-4 years older.

They had E-bikes and were out riding instead of quitting because they could not hang with the 60+ year old youngsters than can still do 20 something.

Enjoyed seeing them and talking with... So definitely a place for power...

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/23/19 8:51 PM

I have no problem with e-bike, provided it’s truly “assist” rather than motoring.

But for that to be the case, the motor need to decrease output as speed goes up, and should cut out at 10-12mph max!

I mean, who climbs above 12mph? If you can, you don’t need a freaking motor!

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/24/19 12:17 PM


quote:
for the most part, they were off doing their own thing.

That strikes me as these are not "bikes" but rather "electric motor cycles" if they have not much in common with bicyclists on a "bike" tour.

They should be classified in its own class.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

5/24/19 1:34 PM

Legally, they are classified separately from bicycles and have limits on top motor-assisted speed, and motor output, IIRC. Various states have bans on riding them in specific locations, such as MTB trails or bike paths.

As for mixing them with traditional bikes on organized tours, it's not as if you can really separate them, as that would require separate events, which may not be practical or economically feasible. One advantage of a mixed group is that spouses with differing levels of fitness can ride together if the weaker one is on an E-bike. Without that option, the tour operator may lose them as customers. As I mentioned previously, there were riders in our group who simply could not have done the tour without an E-bike. Is it fair to deny them the opportunity to enjoy a beautiful place on a bike? Remember, they were paying the same amount that we were. They still had to pedal, just not as hard as the rest of us.

When there are substantial gaps in skill level, perhaps some form of separation is wise in order to avoid accidents caused by poor riding. This tends to occur naturally in groups of pedal-bikes only, since there is frequently a correlation between skill and fitness. As riders advance in both, they're welcomed into appropriate groups. E-bikes completely blur that line.

The bottom line is that it's a somewhat new frontier that's going to take time to sort itself out.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 19068
Location: PDX

5/24/19 2:31 PM

"Various states have bans on riding them in specific locations, such as MTB trails or bike paths. "

Like here in OR, not so you'd notice though... And the e-scooter on sidewalks and MUTs with helmet-less riders ignoring those laws.

Side note: It took me a bit the other day to close the gap on a guy on a E-skate board in site ahead. Then a slight downgrade I dropped him easily. Going down grade it only goes so fast, unlike me on a bike with gravity and fat in my favor...

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

5/24/19 4:11 PM

@Brian

Pacing? You mean like a derny? You’re sitting on the wheel of a newbie rider on an E-bike? Man, I find that terrifying.

I’m not sure I’ve ever actually even seen one of these on the road, but I have no problem with them in principle, and it would be fine on a tour where you diddle around 30 miles per day from hotel to hotel, but I can’t imagine sitting in a semi-serious pack with them.

Some friends asked me to accompany them on a bike tour in Morocco, which would include riders on e-bikes and have pretty short mileage. I couldn’t do it for various reasons, so I didn’t have to figure out if it would be OK. Probably so on that trip as I wouldn’t have been sitting on anyone’s wheel. But whether I’d want to go on a trip like that is another question.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6593
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/24/19 9:04 PM

I can’t be arsed to pack my bike for a long plane ride to do a short mileages “touring with bike” kind of trip ( as opposed to a bike tour, where riding is a significant part)

But if bikes are provided, and I want to go to the region even without bikes, that would be different.

Speaking of that, I have a trip report I completely forgotten about...

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6884
Location: Maine

5/25/19 4:08 AM

OK

“I can’t be arsed to pack my bike.” No comment!

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5096
Location: Nashua, NH

5/25/19 6:46 AM

Dan, when it's been a long day in the mountains and you're pretty beat, plus you're facing the prospect of miles into a headwind, you'd be amazed what wheels you're willing to follow! ;-)

The E-bike rider in question had modest skills, but the only issue we had was that the boost from the motor caused her to pull away as soon as the road turned upward. A bit of coaching to explain that she needed to downshift, rather than just letting the motor provide the extra power needed, helped smooth things out. She was very receptive to it and earnestly wanted to help, plus her husband was in our little group at the time. Since she was sitting on the front of the group on a wide open road (no intersections) and not mixing it up with us, the risk was pretty minimal. I've been on a lot of worse wheels in groups and frankly, the only close calls I had were with one of the guys on a regular bike, who freaked out over rough patches of road (typical New England conditions) and seemed oblivious to others around him as he swerved and panic-braked.

OTOH, there were a few times when the one guy who was on an E-bike was in the middle of things and was somewhat disruptive. He also thought nothing of blasting past people at unpredictable times, though it seemed to be mainly so he could get ahead to take pics of us. His intentions were good, it was just the execution that was somewhat lacking. He was a really friendly, funny guy, which helped to mitigate any annoyance.

Riding with an E-biker locally has been different, as I explained previously. I've only ridden with this one local individual but it's inevitable that more will come.

Riding in a mixed group is definitely a balancing act that largely comes down to the personality, skills and level of pack-riding understanding/etiquette of the E-bikers. With the right people, it can work well, but with a mismatch, it could be aggravating at best and dangerous at worst.

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