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Thoughts on White Paper (kidney donation related)
 

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8310
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/16/18 7:19 PM

Thoughts on White Paper (kidney donation related)

Been a bit but I have a tech question for the wise minds here.
_________________
Would this

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12669260

and age explain my perceived slow recovery from cycling and exercise in general?

I find that my performance drops off quite a bit if I do three days of good efforts.

I am also lifting weights again but only 3 days a week and never a muscle group two days in a row (other than core work). I am avoiding high weight and targeting muscular endurance not bulk.

I have dropped 12lbs since April first but trust me it is belly fat so to speak, I was getting “soft” and removed much of that now.

Currently I am striving for a 30/30/30 diet and have been told to keep my protein intake under 1.2g per kilo (I have to take a protein supplement to get close). The carbs come easy but the protein and fat not so much.


So, thoughts on the white paper, am I seeing performance reduction over consecutive days due to reduced kidney function? (creatinine level was 1.6 in April when the folks at MUSC finally saw it going down post op)

My overall performance is up to levels I have not seen since 2015 (based on Strava data and my performance on segments), but I can’t do it every day like in the past.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16856
Location: Portland, OR

7/16/18 9:08 PM

How old are you now, I forget?

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8310
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/17/18 5:23 PM

52

https://www.strava.com/athletes/143321

if you want to see the data from the last few years. I am having to work my ass off to get back any form at all.

2 a day workouts (ride and lift) are common.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16856
Location: Portland, OR

7/17/18 6:07 PM

I can say that 42-44 years old I was crazy strong and rode several centuries a week for a few seasons. And about 50ish is where I experienced the same thing. Wait until you are 60+ Like I am now. All you can do is stay on the bike and sneakers and be the best the cards will allow.


I think I could do and be more than I am now. But don't know that I am willing to put in as much more time it would take now VS 16 years ago.


Last edited by Sparky on 7/17/18 6:43 PM; edited 2 times in total

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greglepore
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: SE Pa, USA

7/17/18 6:09 PM

yeah. 52 with a major trauma to your system. Recovery is your friend. It caught up to me as well, at about 57, but I had a couple years off completely. Plus its been really hot and humid this summer.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16856
Location: Portland, OR

7/17/18 7:12 PM

Greg had the MC accident as I recall, I the tib/fib plateau fractures @ 50, you a major surgery and you body recovering from some missing bits.

See a pattern. ;)

In the scheme of things my 'trauma' was not nearly as deep as you guys. But it took into the third year before I could even stay on the bike.

I recall saying here in a thread I felt like I had no business posting on a cycling forum. Back when all we talked about was cycling I mean. ;)

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3613
Location: Brooklyn, NY

7/18/18 8:30 AM

In my early 50s, I was running marathons and riding centuries. Since then, I would injure myself whenever I started ramping up my marathon training. I've learned that I can't run two days in a row any more. My body just doesn't recover in time. Yeah, the body changes as you age . . .

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KerryIrons
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 2939
Location: Midland, MI

7/18/18 8:49 AM

Recovery and intensity

Everything I have read says that as you get older, the number of high intensity days per week you can do drops. It might have been four, then three, then two, with two being the number you see in all the literature for chronologically enhanced people. And recovery becomes ever more important. So three hard days in a row is definitely out of the question as a consistent pattern.

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PLee
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 3613
Location: Brooklyn, NY

7/18/18 8:58 AM

"Chronologically enhanced" - I'm going to steal that one . . .

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16856
Location: Portland, OR

7/18/18 9:09 AM

You kinda have to remember, for example me @ 61 now. What percentile of 61 year olds are doing a few 50 mile rides a week in season. Are even fit enough to walk a few miles without dropping dead.

But of course, I keep saying a century this season now for a few seasons. But reality only has brought me a few metrics. And I take two days off after that if I do it in less time than I did flat centuries when I was in my low 40s. And back then I'd ride a 30-40 mile recovery ride the day after a full century. Unless I had been trying to crack 4 hours, then it would be a 12-15 recovery ride the next day.

I am a has been and as long as I can still ride I am totally OK with it. If I never had the ski accident and my brain thought I was still 30, I might be faster and riding more distance today.

But especially since my heart has been acting up these past few years, I don't keep putting out big watts [relative] at a certain HR. Something when I was 40-50 I ignored, and why these last few years my heart is doing what it does now.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4189
Location: Nashua, NH

7/18/18 11:40 AM

Let's face it, getting old sucks

Erik, I don't know what you typically do, but I'll share some things I've learned the hard way.

Sometimes you never completely recover from a major injury. I have never been the same since I broke my hip 20 years ago this month. Some of that is likely due to ageing, but even in the years immediately after the injury (I was 41 when it happened), I never got back to the same level of fitness. I don't have any direct repercussions from the injury and I haven't gotten timid on the bike either; my body has just not been the same since. I know that this isn't what you want to hear and hopefully it won't apply to you, but you should probably be prepared to accept it, just in case.

In the past few seasons and particularly this year, I've learned how dangerous it is to let your fitness drop off significantly in the winter. Regaining fitness gets harder every year and I've hurt myself by trying to push too hard, too early in order to be fit for the summer. For a few years now, I've started out feeling good in the spring, only to come completely unglued in June. This year has been the worst yet and hopefully I've finally learned a lesson.

Core and upper body conditioning is really important and I've done a really poor job of maintaining that now that I don't have a gym at work anymore. There's no excuse for it other than laziness on my part, so shame on me. I'm going to get back in the kayak and work on it soon, but for now, I need to concentrate on the bike and recovery from riding.

Injuries from other activities are much more common now. I have shoulder, neck, arm and back issues from splitting wood and similar activities. Part of the problem is a failure to recognize the difference between just "being sore" and "having done some real damage". I've hesitated in treating injuries figuring that they' just go away with time (like they used to) and that has exacerbated the negative effects. These things have definitely hampered my cycling and the rest of my life.

That said, a friend of ours who was visiting recently told me that I was doing really well for a guy my age, which was nice to hear, even if it doesn't feel that way to me. Compared to the general American population, it seems that we're all doing well for our age. That may not be a very high bar, but it's something.

In that same vein, I was discussing it with Linda this morning and I realized that the biggest issue is that I can remember what I used to be able to doing when I was in my early 20's and racing. It's important not to compare your current self with your young self, as that's ultimately going to result in disappointment. We will never again be what we once were and what we should focus on is being the best we can be now.

Perhaps the most important thing is that riding needs to be FUN. Grinding away on the road lately was also grinding away at my enjoyment of the sport. This past weekend, I jumped on my gravel rig and hit some local trails for a change of pace. It was wonderful! I breathed forest air, petted some dogs, chatted with their owners and recommended trails to some riders new to the area. I went home feeling SO much better than when I left! I'm going to make an effort to seek out the joy in riding, which is really what it's all about, wherever you find it.

Hopefully, I'll actually be able to remember all of this! ;-)

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6073
Location: Maine

7/18/18 4:18 PM

Getting old ain't for sissies

Well I'm older than you guys (nearly 68) and recently have a raft of health issues that have been chronicled elsewhere. And of course the answer depends on what your mean by "good effort." If you're talking about something hard like serious interval sessions, if at over 50 you could do 3 consecutive days I'd consider you a freak. Before my recent issues, when I was doing hard stuff like Ergvideo workouts, 3 per week was plenty (albeit I was older than you).

With my current issues, although I feel fine, I'm trying to sort out whether it makes sense to go as hard as I'd like to. So at your age, without those issues, I'd say recover as you need to, and go like hell. As Brian says, trying to go hard when you feel like crap is a drag, and there's no reason to do that.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16856
Location: Portland, OR

7/18/18 4:33 PM

Brian's last paragraph is wise IMO. One of my fav things to do is not repeat routes, go get lost. Removing the perception of time is the result, that is enjoyable.

I am past you, having already traveled through denial then anger, then a little bargaining. Skipped past depression [I think] and am at acceptance with my age and what the body can deliver.


Don't get stuck depression what ever you do. ;)

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ErikS
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 8310
Location: Slowing boiling over in the steamy south, Global Warming is real

7/18/18 5:33 PM

Depressed? riding keeps that from happening.

BTW, I set a PR on my lunch route today. I also had leg day at the gym. Tomorrow will be a light spin.

I also do a crap ton of core work, every trip to the gym includes a brutal core workout that works my lower back, obliques and abs.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16856
Location: Portland, OR

7/18/18 6:20 PM

you are light years ahead of me. I only ride after stretches and some bag work for core shit, in case I have to pumble someone trying to run me over on the bike.

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Marc N.
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 448
Location: Israel

7/18/18 9:07 PM

What I have found over the years (like Dan I`m 68) is the the loss isn`t gradual but rather quite sudden. I would be able to go a few years at a certain speed, and then wake up one day and lose 5 or so percent. Lost, gone, not coming back. Then for a few more years be able to maintain that new level and then all of a sudden another drop. Fortunately I am able to ride year `round, so I don`t have to deal with losing fitness. Now, in summer, I try to get out 3-4 evenings during the week for 20-25 miles and on Saturday morning for 40-60 miles . At this stage, almost all of my rides are at a 75-80% level (more than that and I almost immediately feel the effects of the heat), and they are for both the mental and physical health benefits, as well as the enjoyment.
I keep saying that I will do some core work, but as Sparky said earlier, I`m just not willing to put in the time or effort required. So it goes.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4189
Location: Nashua, NH

7/19/18 5:52 AM

Sparky, I've found myself doing the same thing as you, exploring new roads. It really changes my perspective on riding when I do it, as I slow down and pay more attention to my surroundings. I realize that I have to conserve my energy in case I get lost and put in more miles than I planned, but it's adds an element of excitement and mystery that's lacking in my regular routes. In some cases, I've found really interesting roads that I never knew existed, but have become part of my repertoire of routes now. I'm going to work on doing more of that, too.

Erik, you're still a beast! Keep up what you're doing for as long as you can, but be prepared to adjust your routine for less hard work and more recovery. You'll be fine, as long as you adjust your expectations, too.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4189
Location: Nashua, NH

7/19/18 7:32 AM

Ironically, this was in my inbox this morning:

https://www.bicycling.com/health-nutrition/a22036819/recovery-secrets-of-cycling-pro-alison-tetrick/?utm_campaign=Bicycling&utm_source=bicycling.com&utm_medium=newsletter&smartcode=YN_0004831074_0001674722&sha1hashlower=5b38b669a3a963ebdb4846d6c6b1cbf5dc1499f3&md5hash=b8e35fcb2e465a14d1de7f0245235df1

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16856
Location: Portland, OR

7/19/18 10:25 AM

The "Find Your Fun" section in that article is what the getting lost accomplishes for me.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4189
Location: Nashua, NH

7/20/18 12:33 PM

Signs of progress

Last night we did our Thursday team ride and I actually felt pretty strong for the first time this year. They tagged me to lead the "B" group and I was finally able to sit on the front and push the pace for the whole ride, albeit only 26 miles and change. Hopefully, I've turned the corner for this season, fitness-wise. We'll see when I go out to play on the 'cross bike shortly. If nothing else, it's a huge morale booster and I enjoyed it for a change.

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