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these pancake 1x cogsets boggle the mind!!!
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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1131
Location: South of Heaven

5/28/18 5:45 PM

Yeah, I kinda covered that in my previous posts. It's not for me either, however there was a time when folks thought it was ludicrous to purchase plain bottled water, ride a bike using tubes inside tires, or cables inside a frame, place additional (areo) tubes on drop handlebars, wear beer cooler material on their head, wax their legs as well as their chains, upgrade to n+1 gear, etc.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2386
Location: Canberra, Australia

5/28/18 5:47 PM

My touring bike has had a Rohloff hub on it for almost 20 years. I run it with a 38t chainring and 17t cog, which gives me a top gear of 90" and a low of 17" - I can't see why you'd want to complicate things with multiple rear cogs plus derailleur. I've been up lots of substantial climbs in the Alps and Pyrenees on that bike, and not felt that I wanted a lower gear. The hardest climb I can recall on it was Mt Rigi in Switzerland, which averaged 11% for about a dozen kilometres, with sections over 25% and the final three kilometres averaging just over 14%. My gearing was adequate but I had problems with the front wheel coming off the ground on the steepest sections.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

5/28/18 5:58 PM

See what happens when type in forum shit you shoulda maye not even thought out loud? ;)

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Jesus Saves
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 1131
Location: South of Heaven

5/28/18 6:35 PM

True words indeed

It's all good. I don't mind being a heretic. Not everything has to make sense (see original thread title), nor do I personally disagree with needing more than 14 unique speeds/gears. Just wait, in ten years I will write here I told you so, while I wax on about my single speed bike.

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April
Joined: 13 Dec 2003
Posts: 6426
Location: Westchester/NYC

5/28/18 6:50 PM

When did multiple gear first appear?

The first generation of bikes are single speed...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/28/18 8:13 PM

It happened pretty early on, in the 1920's, IIRC. Bikes were made with dual-sided hubs with different cogs on each side. To change gears, you had to get off the bike, remove the rear wheel, flip it around and reinstall it. Needless to say, riders didn't change gears very often.

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Nick Payne
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 2386
Location: Canberra, Australia

5/28/18 10:53 PM


quote:
Bikes were made with dual-sided hubs with different cogs on each side. To change gears, you had to get off the bike, remove the rear wheel, flip it around and reinstall it.
A framebuilding friend in Perth who built our touring tandem for us used to tour with his brother on this sort of setup - double-sided fixed wheel with track dropouts on the frames, and two chainrings about three tooth different up front. In the 1980s they rode the Gunbarrel Hwy thus equipped. I accompanied them from Perth for the first couple of days of the trip. They would get up in the morning, look at the sky and the wind direction, and decide what gear they were going to put the bike in for that day.

A bit of blurb on the Gunbarrel Hwy here - it's about 1000 miles of rutted corrugated desert track, with not a single town along its length: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunbarrel_Highway

Edit: I just found this short bit of YT video of tackling the corrugations on the road by bicycle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtHj7a4MFNk

<img src='https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Gunbarrel-Highway-26-Jun-2007.jpg' width=1200>

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/29/18 5:15 AM

That looks like absolutely miserable riding! It seems like a perfect place for a full-suspension fat bike, with a suspension stem and seatpost. ;-)

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walter
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 4360
Location: metro-motown-area

5/29/18 6:47 AM


quote:
That looks like absolutely miserable riding!


word!!!

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

5/29/18 11:25 AM

Is there a continuous non washboard along the edges, or does that soften up and present those challenges.

Last edited by Sparky on 5/29/18 12:26 PM; edited 1 time in total

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dan emery
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 6037
Location: Maine

5/29/18 12:10 PM

Sign me up

I'm sure Backroad or some other posh tour companies run tours out there...

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

5/29/18 1:39 PM

Sign you up, eh.

Me too, just maybe not quite the entire run. ;)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

5/29/18 2:02 PM

C'mon Sparky, just think of it as a 1000 mile "bike massage"! ;-)

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daddy-o
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 3213
Location: Springfield

6/16/18 1:58 PM

Nick's Bicycle Retailer helmet article led to this:

11x50 12sp cassette

Bicycle Retailer & Industry News article - With link to full screen copy of this photo. June 15

SRAM NX Eagle brings 1x12 to lower price point

CHICAGO (BRAIN) SRAM's new NX Eagle offers a 1x12 speed offroad drivetrain for about $375 for the group. The group shares many features with SRAM's XX1, X01 and GX drivetrains. Notably, its 11-50 tooth cassette works with Shimano-type cassette bodies. SRAM is targeting the group at entry level mountain bike and e-MTB use.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

6/28/18 11:48 AM

Capacity, more [and my RD upgrade]

Once I got the Q-Rings setup on the Scott, I decided to pull the 5800 group off and take the Di2 out of the boxes and re-install. The 5800 RD is a GS mid cage, and the 52/36 cranks, and 36/53 Q-Rings worked with the 11-34 cassette.

I had ordered an upgrade to the RD to GS, I have a SS [33T capacity], and the GS [37T capacity] I did have got sold on the Domane. The new RD is the M8050 [newest series], which the Shimano Di2 Compatibility chart sez works.

This M8050 is Shadow Tech and 39T capacity.

For the Di2 curious, it worked as previously setup [inc.climber switch and the ST-6770 10s STIs] via the e-tube app with the RD-6870 RD with one difference. The system default for the RD is to default to shift control mode. FYI, I can't use sycro-shift without upgrading my front harness and battery set up.

Which means it will not allow a small/small cross chain with any configured crank setup with more than 14T chain ring difference. It is set up previously as 52/36. Googling reveals only telling the software it is a 38/52 or 39/53 will allow it to use the entire cassette in the little ring.

There you have it.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

6/28/18 12:35 PM

I was afraid to update the firmware with the newest version of the e-tube software [I have the USB PC interface], but I did it anyway. Can't adjust the custom shifting with the old external battery updated to the newest it will allow. Just speed of shift as before. Apparently, I'd need to change battery, front junction, and shifter/controllers. In a perfect world I could only cfg it so the 11 does not work on the small ring. ;)

I actually like the ST-6770 better than the ST-6870, which got less chunky and uncomfortable for me. Else, I'd have put them on the Domane to sell.

I will have to get my hands on the ST-R8070, in the most literal sense...

EDIT: "New, slimmer shape and improved tactile button feel" re:8050 over 6870, and the 6870 over the 6770 IMO already narrow as to be less comfortable for gorilla mitts...

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

6/29/18 5:11 AM

I have no idea how you keep track of your inventory of bikes and parts; my head spins every time you get into one of these building posts. ;-)

Shimano 6870 levers are the most uncomfortable thing I've ridden in decades. They apparently have zero understanding of ergonomics and are by far the worst of the "big three" in that regard. Given that, I'm going to stay FAR away from their saddles!

Allegedly in this latest generation, they've finally figured out that people don't like buttons that are designed so that you can't tell if you've pressed them or not.

When it comes to ergonomics, Campy wins hands down. (queue the song "Nobody Does it Better")

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

6/29/18 10:12 AM

No kidding Brian. The climber switch I use mostly, you can actually feel the switch... switch. ;) But the 'ergo' of the 10s ST-6770s are good at least.

I miss upshifts on the STIs too often, the ST-6870 11s a little better there. I may glue an extended pad on the small buttons. The paddle and button are also too level to each other, and to close to each other with next to no separation.
And it doesn't help that the flesh of your finger presses on the level before the button registers.

[edit: Just glued a 2mm thick piece of rubber to raise it, see how it help and how long it stays on. ;)]

If I did not have this Di2 stuff already, I'd probably get another Chorus 11s group. Since I put the Chorus on the Nago I want to put it on everything.

I almost ordered another Kit new for $1030.00 @ #merlincycles. I just dislike the 4 arm crank looks. So I'd sell it out of the group and use the 5 arm that came with the Chorus.

As far as keeping track, I know every part on and off every bike here. Not sure how or why. ;) It irked me having the Di2 Ultegra in boxes, but until I got the R8050-GS rear DR... Well I did not want to build another flatlander with the RD-6780-SS in inventory. ;)

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

6/29/18 3:12 PM

The hard-to-distinguish buttons is the main reason I set mine up with Synchro-Shift and both-left-down and both-right up shift buttons. After using it for a while, I still like the concept but the Synchro-shift is just too slow and I don't know if I can speed it up. I'm used to being able to snap off front/rear simultaneous shifts in a heartbeat with Campy and waiting for Synchro-shift to fully change the front, then work it's way through 3 rear cogs is painful. It's particularly bad when you're climbing and it drops off the big ring; it completely screws up your cadence and momentum.

I may end up going back to the standard shifting pattern, as at least it gives me more control. Your idea of making the buttons more distinct is a good one and I may try it.

I'm still toying with the idea of doing something like this on the Shimano levers:


However, what I want to do is use the single sprinter buttons and configure then to work like Campy "mouse ears". I'd configure the levers behind the brakes to work like they do on Campy levers. Unfortunately, the Sprinter buttons won't work with 6870 levers and I don't know if there's any way to splice them into the buttons on the brake levers to duplicate their function. at $150/pair (ridiculous!), it would be a pretty costly mistake if they don't work.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

6/29/18 4:15 PM

Brian, I like that idea of embedding the the climber pod into the inside of the STi. Cost effectiveness??, as you point out...

On the Domane I had put the sprinter buttons under the tape, and would not do it again for the cost. I put them on the front/tops to try as such.

The climber pod on the Scott is currently right of stem facing forward and using index finger for actuation is nice. The original intended placement with thumb actuation did not work for me. I was continually hitting the buttons on bumps while on the tops. I wonder if mounting inside of the lever might not also cause easy unintentional shifts.

But maybe the sprinter buttons on the inside of the hoods as thumb button right side position programed to go to smaller on the rear. But you need ST-6870 for the Sprinter buttons, which I think you have. The ST-6770 not compatible.

BTW, the Di2 ST-R80## have built in buttons on the tops of the STIs. I can see that as possibly useful. But like the thumb idea better. ;)

Test time on the glued on patch, patch. ;) It is still prominent when the button registers. That should be better than your finger pressing the button and side of the lever before the button registers...



FWIW, I love the NashB/Microshift as far as tactile and buttons et al.

Best part is that when the front is trimmed, the smaller button moves out 2-3mm. So a touch of the finger and you know if you are trimmed or not. And the button is well separate of the paddle, and well prominent as well even in the non trimmed position. The MicroShift hood tops are also asymmetrical like the Chorus 11s are. I find that more ergo in itself.



Last edited by Sparky on 6/29/18 5:55 PM; edited 1 time in total

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

6/29/18 5:53 PM

I should mention, I am pretty sure with the ST-6870 you can cut a e-tube wire, plug it into a port on the Shifter and just connect to SPST push button switch. The sprinter switches are just SPST.

Like Cateye remote kit, if you can find them anymore. I have one on the wall in the shop. Just cut the cateyes connector off and splice to e-tube wire.




Hidden top button location R80## versions Di2 levers.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

6/29/18 7:00 PM

I was just digging around and found Shimano documentation that indicated that the sprinter buttons DO work with the 6870 levers, as you say. I could swear that I looked and the ports weren't there, but I'll check again when I have the chance. If that's the case, I'll probably take the plunge an try the modification. I figure if I place the buttons in a similar position to what Campy uses, I shouldn't have too many problems with unintentional activation. Perhaps I should try to mount them horizontal instead, so I would have to push down like with Campy shifters.

EDIT: Scratch that, I have the R785 levers, not the 6870. They're not compatible with the sprinter buttons, so my only option would be to hack the levers, but as you said, the switch is nothing special. I may even just go to a large electronic supplier in the area and see what they have for SPST switches.

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

6/29/18 7:46 PM

The disc lever if not compatible with the Sprinter switches, stands to reason same as ST-6770. In that you'd need a controller board as in the climber pod.

I know the ST-6770 have two ports in each, the ST-6870 having 3 ports. The third is the trick for the momentary switch hacks. They hook into the logic of the main switch controller, where in the 6770 [and maybe the disc STi versions] they only go to the bus IIRC.

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Brian Nystrom
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4170
Location: Nashua, NH

6/30/18 2:17 PM

Here's one method that doesn't look too bad:

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=151321

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Sparky
Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 16738
Location: Portland, OR

6/30/18 2:34 PM

I considered that before I got the ST-6870 Levers for $159.00 shipped. So the Addict and the Madone were Di2 at the same time. Once I got the 6870 levers I just sniped the sprinter switches off eBay. Both the ST-6870 and the sprinter went with the Domane, back to older parts on the Scott now. ;)

I like the Pod facing forward so much I probably won't tap the Cateye kit in unless I find another pod for cheap. That hack at that link would be easy peasy for me, I repair PCB traces with buss wire, so experience and soldering skills up to that.

PCB=printed Circuit Board, multi layer traces you sometime have to bypass and solder to. Same as the foil on the Pod board, just can't use too much heat and not for a second longer than needed else that shit is easy to fry. So low heat minimal size work/soldering experience required I'd say.

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