9/28/14 7:27 PM

Building new wheels and would be interested in people's thoughts about DT Competition vs. DT Revolution. I would actually prefer 15/16 (1.8/1.6 mm) Competitions but even though they are listed in DT's catalog (last time I checked) I can never find a source for them.

So that leaves the Revolutions as another possibility vs. the 2.0/1.8 mm Competitions. A little more expensive and a little lighter. What else (if anything)?

9/28/14 8:07 PM

Sapim race/laser/d-lite good choices.

Recent build for the Scott; HED Belgium rims with Sapim Race 14/15DB front and rear drive side. Sapim Laser non drive side rear. I would have used Lasers front if 32x, but front was 24 holes. Rear a DA hub 32x.

Paid .40 ea Race, .80 Laser. [danscomp.com]

The D-Lites are 2.0 - 1.65 - 2.0 mm.
Lasers same as Revos, Race same as Competitions.
Last few sets prior, revos w/competitions drives side. But can not find for decent prices anymore. Sapim just as good IMO. Some feel better. [some don't?] ;)

Built a front Disc wheel Thurs with Sapim Race, because I got some inventory and wheels are for the 29er disc Hardtail.

What rims are you planning on using ?

If you order from danscomp, I have a few points on the process to avoid two things you may want to avoid.

9/28/14 9:53 PM

Another vote for Sapim Race spokes. I've been using them for many years. DT Revs, or the Sapim Laser equivalent, are a PITA to build with, because the small diameter central section winds up very easily as the spokes are brought up to tension, which means when you stress-relieve the wheel it goes further out of true as the spokes unwind.

I've also built several sets of wheels using Sapim CX-Ray spokes, which are are as light as Revs or Lasers and the only bladed spoke that will fit a non-slotted hub. I've found them strong enough to hold up under racing tandem use without any problems. Their downside is that they're very expensive. I used to be able to buy them from the UK for about £1 each, but they're now about twice that price...

9/29/14 12:46 AM

Am I the only one that's had bad luck with Sapim spokes? I know Peter White feels the same way about DT spokes as I do.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/dtspokes.htm

He also uses Wheelsmith spokes now.

As noted by Nick, Revolution spokes are a pain in the ass to work with. If you insist on using them then at the very least use something heavier on the drive side of the rear or you'll be cursing the number of follow up tunes required to get the wheel straight.

The Wheelsmith spokes are a slightly lighter butted spoke being 2.0/1.7/2.0 without having the wind-up issues of a skinnier Revolution spoke.

I haven't used the Sapim Race spokes but I built a few wheels with CX-Rays and had issues with broken spokes. I only used the elbowed CX-Rays, apparently the straight pull ones were better. You might remember Reynolds used the elbowed CX-Rays when they first started making wheels and they were plagued with broken spokes early on too. It sounds like the Race spokes are better/more reliable. I don't know. But I do know the Wheelsmith butted spokes are a good choice, a bit lighter than standard butted spokes, and don't have any issues with breaking.

But I'd use the DT spoke nipples, they are the best, though there's nothing wrong with the Wheelsmith nipples, and the Wheelsmith ones come in lots of colours. I prefer the DT because I have a DT 4 sided spoke wrench and the DT nipples are ever so slightly smaller than the Wheelsmith ones and I can't use the DT spoke wrench on the Wheelsmith nipples.

If your rims don't have eyelets use brass nipples. The friction between the rough cut spoke hole in the rim and the softer alloy nipple can cause the nipple to weaken and you might get the end of the nipples popping off after a few years, or at the very least long before the wheel is worn out.

Linseed oil as a lube for the nipples and the eyelet will help reduce spoke windup and the likelihood of rounding off a nipple during the build. It's cheap, and easier to work with than loctite. Grease or oil is a bad idea because it doesn't "set" while the linseed oil will get sticky and resist the nipples from unwinding over time but the bond is easy to break should you need to true the wheel down the road.

9/29/14 2:48 PM

My standard build is Sapim Laser on the front and left rear, with Sapim Race on the right rear. I switched from DTs strictly because of the difference in price. I've never had problems with either brand, nor any windup issues with the Revolution or Laser spokes.

I always use Al nipples and don't have any issues with them, either. For rims without eyelets, I made a simple tool to burnish a bevel on the inside of the spoke holes. It's just a #2 Phillips screwdriver reground to the shoulder angle of the nipples, then run against a wire wheel to round the edges. It works like a charm and it takes all of a couple of minutes per rim to twist it into each spoke hole. I would do this even if I used brass nipples.

Grease on the threads may not cure like linseed oil, but it makes it easier to achieve proper tension (it's a much better lubricant) and that alone helps to lock the threads. A little research on bolts and torque settings will explain how threads stretch and become self locking at the correct tension. Both Sapim and DT sell self-locking nipples, if you feel the need for something more.

I've only built one set of wheels with CX Ray spokes, straight pull rear, J-bend front and I found them to be more of a pain to work with than anything else I've used. Between that and their insane price, I won't be using them again any time soon.

IIRC, Sapim just introduced a new ultra-high strength spoke, but they're something like 8 bucks a whack! Maybe it's an attempt to make the CX Ray price seem reasonable. ;-)

9/29/14 3:13 PM

I think the Laser and Revo for me have the same wind up propensity. I don't find it troublesome for building, lubed threads seem to take care of it for me during the build. Not saying no wind up, but nothing a subsequent post ride nipple diddle did not correct for after the ping fest...

Using Finishline to lube the treads since I ran out of spoke prep. I dip spokes in it and it drys to a powdered lube. Like the Finishline better than the spoke prep. I used Olive Oil once when out of spoke prep. Do not recall any problem with that itey build. ;)

Rims, agree totally to Debur without exception.

Nipple to seat lube. I am using TriFlo on the nip base applied from the inside the rim access to the nipple seats [eyelets or not] before tensioning.

I have a few hundred DT Swiss forged Alloy nips. I have had no problems with AL nips. Even with the Open Pro to A23 rebuilds I did last year on 12-13 year old builds using the nips over. Only replacing any I may have clumsily slipped off with the spoke wrench at some point. Just make sure you get quality forged nips and no fear should exist using them. The DTs are forged and machined, sure they cost more than the cheap alloy nips out there. But I won't even think about using them.

I see no reason in a dozen + wheelsets under my belt to make me think locking nipples are needed.
And I keep all the ones I build, so I would see result of needing them and not using them by now probably I figure. ;)

9/29/14 7:20 PM

quote:

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What rims are you planning on using?

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9/29/14 7:31 PM

Take a close look at the OC rim. The drilling presents a no less than interesting rim tape challenge. The holes on the inside go way up to the bead one the one side, especially the ones coming across to the offset side.

I think personally you might be better off using the non OC and revo or laser on the non drive side and 14/15 on the drive side. Only IMO.

9/29/14 7:48 PM

Will Velo Plugs not work on that rim? I have Aerohead OCs now and Velo Plugs work just fine. What is different about the A23 construction?

9/29/14 8:03 PM

Velocity states no on the Veloplugs for the A23, reg and OC, IIRC.