4/17/14 12:03 PM

I have been switching bikes a little, getting ready to off a few. ;) [or not]

It strikes me that the 2007 Roubaix and the 1972 Paramount are strikingly similar in feel. ;)

Very similar in geometry as well, the Schwinn steeper up front but with more rake. Same long chainstays and wheelbase, very close.

FWIW, I think the Schwinn might be a touch more stiff as it pertains to pedaling forces. [TT mashing big ring] It surprises me that a 531 frame can
be so non flexy. I guess it is in the build...

Now this is the last year Specialized before the curvy shaped 'tubes' came in, like the current ones since.

4/17/14 2:36 PM

I raced a 1973 Schwinn P13-9 (road Paramount) for several seasons. Rock solid, handled predictably, disappeared underneath the rider. Still one of my favorite bikes (even if it was 24 lbs) Campy NR crankset, hs, seatpost, 1038 pedals,brakes, front and rear derailleur (rear was modified with Huret ball bearing pulleys) Cinelli UniCanitor seat, Cinelli 1/a stem and 64 bars. Sunbtour racheting downtube shifters, Sugino chainrings. Race wheels Campy high flange hubs, 36 Fiamme red label rear, 32 Fiamme Yellow label front.

Training wheels, Tipo hubs with Mavic Montherly rims (36 of course)

4/17/14 2:57 PM

Yeah, the Paramount and the Colnago SLX 1984 victory I have are solid for skinny tubes. ;) Especially the SLX, that thing has a small fast snap with one little flex you can coax into it on the return .:)

I ask myself why the Scott LTD when I ride these. Until I climb or try to go crazy fast. Although the big ring pull on the Paramount in and out of downtown the other day was pretty consistent and fast for me.

More likely my shape getting better as I stayed in the drops for expended periods, and the bars are lower on the paramount than my other bikes. In fact two rides ago on the Schwinn, I came home and dropped the bars on the Scott afterwards.

Thinking in another month I can drop them that last 1 CM spacer and sit the stem on the headset maybe. ;) Far cry from the post femoral nerve pinch bars situation. I actually flipped a few stem to be positive rise for a while. But was glad I could ride at all, so not complaining [although was at the time ;o]

4/17/14 4:17 PM

The other day I realized that the 4 bikes I ride regularly (road, cross, rando, commuting/errands) now are all steel. No conscious pattern, more that the designs of the bikes appeal to me and they happen to be made of steel.

Obviously I'm not a weight weenie or aero freak.

4/17/14 7:02 PM

I think it says a lot for the S carbon. Your evaluation of the carbon being like the steel ride is the goal of most carbon makers.

For multiple pounds less weight. Big S was spot on.

My CERVELO does not handle like a steel bike, the aero design is not nearly as forgiving as other tube designs vertically while the BB on my bike is like a tree stump.

I knew that going in. I tried the non aero R3 and found it to be a better ride but had an engineering flaw (cable stop design let it pull off the frame) that I discovered on ride one. It handled and rode like a dream though.

4/17/14 7:36 PM

quote:

---

I think it says a lot for the S carbon. Your evaluation of the carbon being like the steel ride is the goal of most carbon makers. Big S was spot on.

---

quote:

---

My CERVELO does not handle like a steel bike, the aero design is not nearly as forgiving as other tube designs vertically while the BB on my bike is like a tree stump.

---

4/18/14 8:39 AM

...is in the larger frame sizes, where steel gets whippy and/or heavy. I've never had a steel road bike that didn't suffer from excessive flex and high speed wobble, though I'm sure that it's possible to make one. However, that would likely come at a huge weight penalty. I once had a Windsor track bike (an original, not from Bikes Direct) that was extremely stiff, but it weighed over 20 pounds.

My Ti bikes were better (Lemond and LS Vortex), but still had some excessive lateral flex.

Both of my carbon frames (Look 585, Cannondale SuperSix HiMod) are much stiffer laterally than anything else I've owned. They're stiffer vertically too, which you notice on larger hits, but the high frequency vibration damping is good and with 25mm rubber at moderate pressure, they're pretty comfy. Both bikes feel absolutely rock solid at high speeds downhill and track beautifully when sprinting, two things I never had in a steel bike.

4/18/14 10:58 AM

I've only ever had one wobbler. It was the Merckx Ti EX which was Litespeed made. It had a carbon Look 1" steeerer fork when I got it. I thought the fork too wimpy, long 1" carbon steerer.

So I had Carl make me a nice Columbus steel straight blade fork. With the unquestionably less flexy fork, especially steel steerer VS 1" carbon, the wobble got worse. And I mean a lot worse. Not a side to side wooble either. It was a for/aft oscillation upon touching the brakes at speed, much worse on bumpy descent. So maybe with the buffer of the flexy fork gone, the frame really did all the flexing it seems.

The Paramount and SLX Nago are 61s, as was the EX, and no wobbles or signs of instability at all at speed. The Roubaix is pretty confident bombing a bumpy descent though. The Paramount also, the SLX can get a little jumpy/bouncy, no wobble what so ever. I guess the combination of stiff and short chainstays and a 99CM wheelbase, which to me is aggressively short for a 61CM frame.

Let me mention I have little fear of doing 50-60 MPH on a bike, so I don't tense up etc. Which I believe can start and exacerbate said wobbles. Well, maybe I should quality that with a before. I seem to be less motivated to go over 40 since my tib/fib, and seemingly age has made for less bouncing and more cracking when it come to my bones. I am not afraid per say these days, but it does not take much steering input tension to start things up. ;) And if you can't relax yourself when you feel it, you will make it worse. So fear is the culprit a lot of time to making it worse IMO.

I actually brake lightly to scrub off speed, something I never used to do, ever. I just see no point in getting close to 40+ anymore honestly. Maybe I will crack less if I fall @ 35 than 45. ;)

4/18/14 4:24 PM

Hmm, I've managed to ride steel frames roughly 58-60 c-c, with tts up to 59.5, over the last 40 years, with none of those problems (at least that I can notice). I did have a steel bike shake once at 50+ mph; that stopped once I noticed and fixed the broken spoke in the rear wheel. I really have noticed flex only on one bike, a '77 Colnago Eddy Merckx Special, with light tubes and pencil stays, but that little bit of flex doesn't bother me at all and I love to ride the bike.

The only bike I've had that scared me at speed was a Colnago Master Ti (probably due to the dual downtube design).

I'll admit I seem not to notice flex. Ever since I started riding road bikes in the early '70s, I've heard riders complain about the dread flex, and my response has been "huh?"

Last weekend I was out on a hilly ride on my new Sachs, got caught in a downpour, and was struck by how solid and secure the bike felt on fast, soaked descents - I'm not sure if "roadholding" is a trait identifiable to bike frames, but it sure felt like I had great grip.

4/18/14 10:53 PM

I re-spaced and dished my Dura Ace wheel with the A23 rims for the Paramount [126mm spaced]. Moved the GP4 All Seasons over, and the 28C tires really sit out nice and ride noticeably different for the better on the 23mm wide rim. Less tall and more fat, not quite 28mm but almost 4mm wider than on the narrow rims. The bike was comfy before, it is even more so now. The black instead of anodized cyan aeroheads looks a bit more streamline. ;)

That clamp on bottle holder works well, but damned if it did not screw with the chrome on the seat tube where I first had it mounted. So I put it on the seat post instead. The frame has no braze on mounts for the bottle holders...

I cross chain it like that on the rack on the back of the car so the chain is good and tight in case a comment was pending. ;)

4/18/14 11:52 PM

That's great-looking Paramount build, I like the shape of that fork!

4/19/14 1:14 AM

"That's great-looking Paramount build, I like the shape of that fork!"

I don't know if you read the build post/thread originally, 10 speed indexed bar cons. So 10 cogs in the rear with the appropriate narrow chain. A real mutt with Shimano in the back and 10 Speed Chorus front setup. It works flawlessly too. Only looks retro-ish. But I ran the bar con cables under the tape, top exit brake cable/levers is a little too retro for me. ;) It is a fun and fast bike, and rides smo-o-oooth. ;)

4/19/14 7:16 AM

Sparky, I imagine your Merckx Ti probably came with the same Look HSC fork that my Vortex did. The original 1" steerer HSC was horribly flexy in every direction and the steerer itself flexed a lot, especially if you had any spacers above the headset. About the only positive thing I can say for it is that it was very comfortable. Replacing it with an Easton EC90SL, which is much stiffer, transformed the bike, though it did make it more evident how much it flexed at the bottom bracket.

Look learned a lesson and the HSC 5SL that's on the 585 is very stiff, as is the frame. Despite the fact that the bike has plain-looking round tubes with carbon lugs and is relatively light (the complete frameset weight is within a few grams of the SuperSix HiMod), it's wonderfully stiff when you push it hard.

Perhaps someday if I'm feeling nostalgic, I'll try to find a '74 Peugeot PX-10 and/or a '76 Raleigh Pro (my first "good" bike and first race bike, respectively), but I just can't see my future self riding steel much. It's more likely that I'll finish the rebuild of the Schwinn LeTour 12.2 that I rescued from a dump on Cape Cod and use that for local errands, where I'd be concerned about one of my good bikes getting stolen.

4/19/14 8:24 AM

>>Perhaps someday if I'm feeling nostalgic, I'll try to find a '74 Peugeot PX-10 and/or a '76 Raleigh Pro (my first "good" bike and first race bike, respectively)<<

I had a '73 PX-10 (still have it, though it was pretzeled by a pickup) and always wanted a Raleigh Pro back then. I got an Atala Record Pro in '75 as it was the best bike I could get with my EMS employee discount (it is still in residence at the LBS). The Atala circulated as a loaner for years. One time a guy riding it beat me in a race (not for the win).