10/24/13 9:33 AM

Decided to make the Strong a SS/Fixed. It has been with me so long I hate to get rid of it, And with the Scott now being the main bike, and the TCX for nasty weather etc... Not getting any use.

So I ordered a White Industries ENO Hub. Pretty thing it is too. My first thought was to just use 14/15 spokes, but curious as to opinion of using Revolutions being it has no dish and I got 32 hole hub and rim. Rim being A23 Velocity.

Got the hub from Pricepoint free shipping and 15% off the already lower price of $155.00. Been looking used for a while. But in Portland all things SS are whack on the prices used, or so used it ain't funny. So $132.00 for that hub was as good as I have seen even used here. ;)

Last edited by Sparky on 10/24/13 9:55 AM; edited 2 times in total

10/24/13 9:41 AM

I vote for 14/15's in a rear wheel. With brass nips.

10/24/13 12:29 PM

I've built many wheels using good 15G spokes, which seem to wind up less during the tensioning process and are also much easier to feed through the spoke flanges than any butted spokes.

It will take a lot of miles before such spokes start to fail in fatigue.
They are a lot less flexy-feeling than Rev's while also doing a better job at reventing a bent rim.

You'll save some coin using 15G. You can find Sapim spokes for very low prices or use DT or W.

I will second the recommendation to use brass nipples, and strongly recommend a tensiometer.

10/24/13 1:22 PM

"tensiometer"

Done a few rebuilds and several new builds without.

I use my guitar tuner and a chart which show what note what length spoke should generally have. So far so good.

10/24/13 1:50 PM

I've built several wheel sets for racing using Sapim CX-Ray spokes, including a set for our tandem. They're very light, and I've never had a single one of those spokes fail, but they're a real PITA to build with due to the way they try to wind-up during tensioning. I have a slotted piece of brass that I use to hold the flat section of the spoke below the thread in correct alignment while tightening the nipple.

On the Sapim web site they claim that the CX-Ray spokes have the longest life of any of their spokes in fatigue tests.

10/24/13 8:42 PM

"...I use my guitar tuner and a chart which show what note what length spoke should generally have. So far so good."

No doubt, you can get within a very tight tension range when comparing the ring pitch of spokes, very high precision, as long as the crossing (touching) spoke adjacent to the ringing spoke is "damped" with the touch of a finger to prevent them both ringing.

To get high tension accuracy requires knowledge of the fundamentals of vibration frequency, taking into account the diameters ans lengths of the butts at both ends as well as the midsection, not to mention whatever effect that the crossing spoke might have on "effective" length(?).

So it would be interesting to at least once compare your audible/calculated frequency method to the reading of a known-good tensiometer. Who knows, it might be more accurate than some tensiometers, and I've always found that audibly checking spokes for tension is a fast (and best) way to achieve balanced same-side tensions during buildup or re-truing.

10/25/13 5:46 AM

...you can easily use DT Revolutions or Sapin Lasers. Danscomp.com will cut Sapim Laser or Race spokes to custom lengths and their prices are unbeatable. I've used them on my last 4 sets of wheels and they're both easy to build with. I rarely use brass nipples, but to each, his own.

I've laced one pair of wheels with CX-Rays and they're a pain to work with, but I assume that's the case for all bladed spokes. Between that, their much higher price and the fact that I don't race, I don't see any point in using them. I can't remember the last time I broke a spoke on a wheel that I built, so I don't see spoke fatigue as being much of a factor in a properly built wheel.

10/26/13 10:12 AM

I've not used brass NIPs yet. But it looks like the 14/15 box of 100 spokes I will be getting on eBay comes with brass nips. The front wheel I will be using with this rear is a DA 9s hub with 15ga and alloy Nip x3 28 spokes. The matching rear for that front is 32x 9s DA hub with 3x lacing and alloy Nips. 14/15 drive and revos on the non drive.

At the time I could not get the revos for the front without waiting. The 15s sure wind up different while building it seemed like. I was reminded when I replaced the Open Pros with A23s recently. Re-used the spokes and alloy Nips no problems.

10/26/13 11:17 AM

I'm not completely against alloy nipples, as long as they won't be getting used in a damp/dirty environment over a long period, which leads them to corrode and ultimately crumble in response to the wrench later on.

Also, alloy nips will tend to break in two from fatigue if the spokes don't come up flush with the top of the nipple.

I would always recommend a light wheelbuild for lighter riders, and use heavier parts and greater spoke count for larger riders. The 15g spokes will stiffen the wheel as compared to using thinner wires.

Lastly, I won't build with alloy nipples on an un-eyeletted rim, since the metals gall against one another and the tensioning process soon goes to hell.

10/26/13 12:30 PM

"I won't build with alloy nipples on an un-eyeletted rim"
My 12 year old Arrow Head rimmed alloy nipped wheelset has not experienced any problems. And they where my single track and rain set for a while over a 2 seasons. Not daily use as such...

10/26/13 3:54 PM

I usually get the galling with alu nips when going for 120kg or so.
Velocity AeroHead rims are very susceptible to cracking, so I dare not exceed 100kg with those. It's not that rigid of a rim, either, so I would advise against very thin spokes on the rear wheel.
I currently am running a 28h Aerohead on the front wheel of my CX bike using 14g spokes since this wheel was built as a rim-transplant for the previous Mavic rim that got damaged.

A lot of the galling effect depends on the particular rim, and iir I got to 135kg with a recent HED Belgium (un-eyeletted) rim before the first nipple showed any indication of not turning smoothly. I stopped increasing tension right there.

10/26/13 9:31 PM

I de-burred the rim holes and lubed as well. I tensioned it a little high because I like the wheels that way. No cracks on those, last time I looked. ;) Earlier this year.

10/27/13 5:55 AM

If you deburr the spoke holes and lube them, galling with alloy nipples is not an issue. Deburring also reduces the likelihood of nipple failure, since the rim cannot cut into the nipples. For deburring, I use an old phillips screwdriver that I reground to match the nipple head angle, then softened the edges on a wire wheel. It burnishes rather than cutting away material and leaves a nice, smooth seat for the nipple.

10/27/13 11:10 AM

The burnishing process sounds interesting, but wouldn't the makers of state-of-the-art high-performance racing rims such as the HED Belgium also be taking the nipple-galling issue just as seriously, being that these are popular in 24h that begs to be tensioned up around 140kg?

Have you tensioned alloy nipples that high on un-eyeletted rims?
I of course lubed the machined seats, and fully expected galling at some point as I approached the requested 150kg, and got to only 135kg before the first nipple showed a sudden dramatic increase in torque, an obvious sign of galling.
I used Never-Seez (diluted with a bit of oil) on a Q-tip to pre-lube the seats.
Perhaps there are better choices of lube here, I don't know.

Another thing about the Aerohead rims is that one might do well to drastically decrease the force of spoke pre-stressing on these rims, as the usual pre-stressing can by itself lead to visible cracking on the rim's surface at least. This might necessitate a bit of extra maintenance in terms of checking/correcting tension later on as the wheel gets "broken in", but seems like a worthwhile trade-off against the possibility of a pre-cracked wheel going into service. I myself prefer to only use Aerohead rims on the front wheel for caution's sake, although they have offered some very pretty colors that convinced me to build pairs in the past.

10/28/13 5:23 AM

...as I've never built with them, but the Kinlin rims I use do not have machined nipple seats, hence the need for burnishing. I don't think I've gone to 140/150 kgf and I don't see any need to, 120 is plenty for Kinlin rims with 20-28 spokes.